Here are some things to get you started:
- Any thoughts about the divorce sermon? [You can read it online, if you want. Just click on the link to the right. Written sermons are a lot different than preached ones, but you can review the content, if you want.]
- What do you think about Wayne becoming an Elder? What do you want from your church leaders? What do you believe Elders and other leaders should do/be? What do you want from me? Go easy, now!
- I finished reading A Travel Guide to Heaven last week. Kinda light stuff, but it made me think of how neat it will be to experience Heaven. There are a lot of days that I wish Jesus would return. "Come, Lord Jesus." While I waiting I have started reading The Company of Preachers – Wisdom on Preaching, Augustine to the Present. It is a fat book (about 500 pages) with no pictures, but I am really enjoying it, hoping to pick up a few things that will help me and benefit you.
- What else is on your heart and/or mind?
30 comments:
I really liked the divorse sermon. I know it was heavy stuff especially for people who have gone through divorse but i think the main thing we all need to come away from is knowing that we need to accept and forgive those who have gone through divorses and for those of us who have not to try whatever it takes to make our marriages work.
I wanted to say this tonight about Proverbs 6: 16-19 David read, when you read it and it lists the 6 things that the Lord hates, 7 that are detestable to him: haugthy eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers. It seems that during a really nasty divorse all of these things could come out. (I would hope that a person wouldn't murrder his spouse during a divorse... but none the less any of these things could be present in a divorse. Not sure what I was meaning by that thought, but just somthing I thought of while David was reading that.
I really like the book His Needs Her Needs, I've been reading it slowly over the last month and it has really helped me understand what my future husband wants and needs our of our marriage, it is also helping him too! We've been able to do things for the other that really builds up our "love banks" with each other. Its a great book!
I really like the idea of Wayne becomming and elder. When I think of great spiritial men, Wayne is one of the first that comes to mind. He has such wisdom and knowledge in his years and I think he will bring all of that to our church leadership. He truely is a man after God's heart. For that matter, all of the men on the church leadership team are men after God's own heart, as it should be, but we are really lucky to have such men leading our church!
I really liked that we had time during service today to greet each other! It was really nice to stand up and just say hi to all the people that i was worshiping around this morning!
P.S. I'm super excited for the "snow" we're going to get this week! - I know it wont stick or last long but snow is so pretty and besides... I love driving in it! :O)
I think being people who keep their promises and fulfil commtiments to the best of their ability and who are willing to be accountable for the words we say is what God wants from us. It will build trust in others that, that person's word is good and nothing of extrordinary means has to be done to make them keep their word because they can be depended on to do the right thing. I think it would eliminate the need for lawyers and law enforcement. Unfortunately we live in a fallen world and we are part of it but Christians are called to a higher standard in their lives and God wants us to be the ones who can be trusted not only by one another but out in the world. Others watch us and measure Christianity by what we reflect. We all fail at times but our goal is to be people of integrity in word and deed. A huge challenge for us all. I just keep remembering the Bible verse, 'Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, my Lord and my redeemer.' Have a great week. Sherron
PS: The divorce sermon on Sunday is the best I have ever heard on the subject..Thanks Allen
Wayne becomming an elder will be one of the most positive things to ever happen to our church. I have known Wayne on a personal basis for my entire life, and behind my father and grandfather, there is no-one i would rather look up to for widsom and advice. He will truly be an asset to our congregation.
Allen, as I told you, I thought you did an excellent job. One of the things that stuck out to me was the emotional heart felt tie you gave the topic. It was very evident that you struggled with the topic and saw the pain in it as well as recognizing you did not hold all the answers. Despite all of this, God's grace is there and it is the ray of hope. Sometimes you have to tackle the tough ones. What good would it do us if you just got up there and told us happy thoughts? There would be no growth.
I can think of no one better to be an elder than Wayne. After all, is there anyone more "elder" than Wayne? Ha, just kidding. Wayne and Neva are very special people and a great addition to our leadership team.
It seems to me that one of the strong points or our church are those individuals who work behind the scenes and have the great talents that Wayne and Neva have shown. Ralph and Rose are great examples of this. There are many others too.
Erin you are nuts about the snow! Actually, I like snow as well. In a previous job, I had to drive the county roads to determine if the schools were going to go or not. I use to leave home about 2 or 3 a.m.It was actually very peaceful to drive on some roads and the only tracks besides mine were those of a fox or deer. The true beauty of the snow and God's creation was there.
RR
I must agree with the rest in saying that Wayne becoming an elder will be a great blessing to our church family. There are many ways to lead without having a title, and I feel like Wayne (and many others) have demonstrated this in both our church and in life. It makes me proud to be part of a church with so many wonderful Christian leaders to follow after.
Great post, Erin. I am excited about your upcoming marriage. I believe you and Michael are going to make a great couple for the Lord. I am glad the book His Needs Her Needs has been helpful to you. I think it is an excellent work.
I love your thinking about snow! I am a little concerned about the timing of the arctic blast we are going to experience at the end of the week, however. Tony E. and I are running the Yellow Trail Marathon this Saturday. Sounds like it is going to be cold. Oh well... It will just add to the stupidity of it all!
Thanks, Diane, for some good thoughts and comments. It was great to have Jerry and Cathy around. I will miss them greatly.
Sherron, you are so right about integrity.
Ryan, you have to behave yourself with Wayne now, since he is going to be an Elder and all. NOT!! Ha ha ha
I appreciate everyone’s encouraging comments about yesterday’s sermon. It is helpful.
I am very excited about Wayne and Neva moving into a new role. They join some other great people. It is a beautiful thing! Our Elders are wonderful empowering men. Keep praying for them.
Wayne and Neva will be a wonderful addition to the already good leadership we are blessed to have! The more I get to know both of them the more I appreciate and love and respect them.
Kedra
One of things that has helped me the most in understanding the Bible and my life in this world is narrative theology. I look at my life as being a part of God’s story. In order for me to live my live faithfully, I need to know the story of God, being informed and shaped by it. If I am not careful I will allow the story of this world dictate who I am and what I do. The following is from The Drama of Scripture – Finding Our Place in the Biblical Story by Bartholomew and Goheen (p.196-7). I find narrative theology helpful in sorting out the divorce problem, as mentioned on Sunday. It is helpful in trying to figure what we do as a church, even in the role and function of leaders.
The world of the Bible is our world, and its story of redemption is also our story. This story is waiting for an ending—in part because we ourselves have a role to play before all is concluded. We must therefore pay attention to the continuing biblical story of redemption. We must resist the temptation to read the Scriptures as if they were a religious flea market, with a basket of history and old doctrines here, a shelf full of pious stories there, promises and commands scattered from one end to the other. Some readers of the Bible turn it into little more than an anthology of proof texts assembled to support a system of theology. Others seek only ethical guidance, ransacking the Old Testament for stories of moral instruction. Still others look just for inspirational or devotional messages, for comforting promises and lessons for daily living. The result may be that we lose sight of the Bible’s essential unity and instead find only those theological, moral, devotional, or historical fragments we are looking for.
But all human communities, including our own, live out of some comprehensive story that suggest the meaning and goal of history and that gives shape and direction to human life. We may neglect the biblical story, God’s comprehensive account of the shape and direction of cosmic history and the meaning of all that he has done in our world. If we do so, the fragments of the Bible that we do preserve are in danger of being absorbed piecemeal into the dominant cultural story of our modern European and North American democracies. And the dominant story of modern culture is rooted in idolatry: an ultimate confidence in humanity to achieve its own salvation. Thus, instead of allowing the Bible to shape us, we may in fact be allowing our culture to shape the Bible for us. Our view of the world and even our faith will be molded by one or the other: either the biblical story is our foundation, or the Bible itself becomes subsumed within the modern story of the secular Western world.
Wayne is an excellent person and will be an asset as an Elder. We have a lot of people who work very hard for our Church. We also have many people that have time and talents that have not been used. We need to make a very strong effort to get every person in the Church to donate their time, energy and talent to the Church. Many people just need to be asked. We have a few people who are doing jobs that others should be doing when their talents should be used for other things.
I think that what the last anonymous post said is true. We do have a very large congregation and only a few people doing the work. For example the food pantry. I have noticed in the bulletin each week that the same people work on the same days each week. I think that leads people to believe that it is an assigned job and that no other volunteers are needed. I am sure there are many in the church that would enjoy helping out if they knew there was a need. I think there is a great opprotunity with the coat drive also. I have helped with it in the past and it is something you don't forget when you see how pleased these children are with their new coats and hats. Don't get me wrong..the dependable folks who are always there are much appreciated but lets be sure to make it known that there is plenty of work for anyone who would like to help.
Allen mentioned that he and Tony E are getting ready to run a Trail Marathon this weekend. If you don't know what this is think about this. This is 26.2 miles up and down hills that are very steep. Include that is on trails. Yes, dirt, rock etc. Pretty neat they are doing this!
I am not trying to start an arguement here but as I have read several of these posts, I see a couple comments that are puzzling to me. Several mention about the many talents of those in the church family and that there are many who have talents that are not being used. It seems a reoccuring theme is ( and I have heard this many times before) "they just need to be asked". What does that mean and why do they need to be asked? Why do we expect to be asked to serve God and our Church? It is easy to say that you didn't do this or that because you were not asked, but why do we expect or require and invitation to get involved?
I ask this in a very humble manner and am really curious as to why we take on that attitude. I have saw this in every church I have ever attended so it is not a MCOC problem.
Any thoughts on this?
RR ( sorry Allen, hand me the spoon again)
I am glad to see the last comment. I was thinking it, but didn't want to say it. We should be driven by an inner desire to help. When you choose to be driven by the spirit, you will act upon needs becuase you will really see them. I know there are times when I am listening to the announcements or reading the bullitin that something will catch my eye or ear and suddenly I'm thinking "Hey, I can do that, I can help there, I have a talent there, etc..." That's the Holy Spirit saying "Hey dummy, get off your butt and act on it". Don't sit there next week and think, man that sounded like something I could have done, too bad I missed it.
That being said, I know that as my kids get older, the activities continue to increase. Most of us have very busy lives. You might be surprised though to really sit back sometimes and analyze your time and where it's spent. Just how much of it is busy vs. how easy it is to say your busy when asked. How much of your busy time is God based? It's OK to have activities outside the church, those are blessing from God. But, if you had a scale with all of your secular activities on one side and your Chistian activities on the other. Which one would be heavier? Thank God for grace, it's the great equalizer.
Brent
We have known and been in Wayne's class since 1973. My poor old Bible is falling apart because when I sat in his classes I marked important topics with notes from his teachings. I still learn from him when I open it and have no desire for a new one. We are so blessed to have him with us and Neva is a treasure just as Wayne is. We have witnessed their strength through many trials and continue to learn from Wayne and Neva. I can think of no better choice that Wayne for the position. They step up to bat when no-one else will and their example to us all has been and will be one to look to. Sherron
Thanks Ryan, for pointing out how truly stupid Tony and I are. I know this sounds crazy to most, but we are really looking forward to it.
Ryan and Brent raise some good points about service. Should Christians have to be asked to serve? I think sometimes we as leadership fail to make it clear the opportunities that exist for service, but it is also true that sometimes we don't get the help we need when we make announcements.
I think a greater sense of community leads to a greater sense of service and vice versa. The closer connected we are to one another, the more we can see the need to serve one another, and the more engaged we are with the culture, the more we see the need to live for the sake of others. We are making some strides in being externally focused, in "living for the sake of others." I think this is another area where narrative theology helps. If I understand that I am a part of God's (unfinished) story, then I can serve with purpose. I am partnering with God in accomplishing his mission in this world, which is to make his shalom known to all of creation, to be an agent and instrument of his reign, to show the world that the Kingdom of Heaven is available on earth.
Some great posts! I have really come to enjoy this blog...Good idea Allen! First, I want to thank Allen for the divorce sermon. I know that this is a tough subject and that it weighed on you and it would have been very easy for you to have dismissed it and no one would have known, so thank you! I was very pleased that both of my sons heard this sermon, I think this was especially a good sermon for the teenagers and young adults who have not maerried yet. They need to realize just how important their decesion on marriage is and to not take it lightly as it shows in the TV & movie world. It seems as though the news reports tell all the time of the breakups in the celebrity world...some do not even make it a few months, let alone a lifetime. My parents divorced when I was 15 and I remember that I was of the very few that had divorced parents...now my boys are of the few that have married parents. Times have changed and I think our young folk need to be reminded often of how important their decisions are and that they can't give up when things get tough. And I think Allen handeled the subject wonderful! (I'm talking you up Allen, don't forget my pay! Ha!...just kidding). I do feel it is very important that we accept people for who & where they are in their lives and pray & help them make the changes that God would want.
Next, I want to say YIPPIE! I LOVE Wayne & Neva and I am so excited about their new role in the church. From the first time I met them, they have made an impact on me! As a mother of two young men, I can honestly say that we have many great examples of good Christian men in our congregation for our young men to follow and Wayne is most definitely in that category! Thanks to everyone in our leadership, you are all wonderful.
I also wanted to say that I do think we should have the desire to respond to God's work without being asked...but I do feel that we have some that want to help but do not know where to start, maybe they are new members to the church or the community and do not know what is available and I'm sure there are other reasons also. I know that there was talk of doing another "job Fair" (not sure what we called it,sorry) thing where information was available on different ways of serving and everyone could sign up for what they wanted to. I think this is a great idea, we continue to grow and I think we need to think about doing something like that again.
I will also miss Jerry and Cathy, they too have been great examples!
I hope everyone had a good Tanksgiving, I have much to be thankful for and my church family is at the top of the list!
Love you all,
Laura
Thanks Laura B.! Your a good un. I was thinking about Laura this morning; she does a lot of ministry in her shop that only a few know about. She really helps a lot of people in various ways. I guess (actually know) that many others do the same, which is relevant to one of our conversations this week. I think there is a lot of work/ministry going on that most of us know nothing about. What do you think? Any examples? Do we need to know? Why or why not?
Here is a powerful poem that came in the Writer's Almanac yesterday, I think. [You can link to it from my LINKS, down and to the right.] It is very insightful regarding group behavior and the fleeting futility of lust.
The Rites of Manhood
It's snowing hard enough that the taxis aren't running.
I'm walking home, my night's work finished,
long after midnight, with the whole city to myself,
when across the street I see a very young American sailor
standing over a girl who's kneeling on the sidewalk
and refuses to get up although he's yelling at her
to tell him where she lives so he can take her there
before they both freeze. The pair of them are drunk
and my guess is he picked her up in a bar
and later they got separated from his buddies
and at first it was great fun to play at being
an old salt at liberty in a port full of women with
hinges on their heels, but by now he wants only to
find a solution to the infinitely complex
problem of what to do about her before he falls into
the hands of the police or the shore patrol
—and what keeps this from being squalid is
what's happening to him inside:
if there were other sailors here
it would be possible for him
to abandon her where she is and joke about it
later, but he's alone and the guilt can't be
divided into small forgettable pieces;
he's finding out what it means
to be a man and how different it is
from the way that only hours ago he imagined it.
by Alden Nowlan from What Happened When He Went to the Store for Bread Nineties Press.
Hey, I came across this great thought this morning while reading. It is by James S. Sanders and found in The Company of Preachers book that I mentioned in my original post. Here Sanders is pointing out the importance of remembering “The Story.” He says well what I tried to say Sunday about redemption and what I said yesterday about seeing the Bible as a story that informs my story. God uses flawed people; always has, always will. There are no other options. Read carefully what Sanders says about knowing and remembering the story to which we belong:
And this may be done by reading the story not as though it were of events way back there about ancient folk but by reading it dynamically, identifying with those who provide us the best mirrors for our identity. The Bible, except in the Wisdom Literature and traditions, provides very few models of morality. An honest read of the Bible indicates how many biblical characters were just as limited and full of shortcomings as we today. It would seem that about seventy-five percent of the Bible celebrates the theologem errore hominum providentia divina: God’s providence works in and through human error and sin. The Bible offers no great or infallible models, no saints in the meaning that word has taken on since biblical times – nearly perfect people. None! It offers indeed very few models to follow at all except the work of God in Creation and in Israel in the Old Testament and the work of God in Christ in the New. Biblical people were just like us! Abraham and Sarah lied when they were scared (Gen. 12:13; 18:15) and laughed (Gen.17:17; 18:12) when they could not believe their own ears or God either. Jacob, our father, was a liar and supplanter (Gen. 27:19) Joseph was an obnoxious imp (Gen. 37:10). Moses was a murderer and fugitive from justice (Exod. 5:12-15).
The presentation of the disciples in all three Synoptic Gospels follows the same theologem: they appear to be incredulous and even rather stupid. Judas’s betrayal of Jesus is told in the same scenes as Peter’s denial and the bickering, sleep, and flight of all the disciples (Luke 22:3-62). When one has come to realize that God can take the selling of our brother Joseph into slavery and turn our evil into our later salvation (Gen. 50:20), then one has also to realize that God has taken our selling of Christ to Caesar and made it our salvation. Then one also comes to thank God that Judas too was at the table at the Last Supper and that he also received the bread and wine, because if he had not been there I could not now come to that table myself. God’s greatest grace was manifest in the midst of the drama of betrayal. He gave us the broken bread on the very night we betrayed him.
We need to read the Bible honestly, recognizing that much of it celebrates God’s willingness to take our humanity, our frailty, and our limitations and weave them into his purposes. God’s grace is not stumped by our limitations. . .
Wow allen that was good, thanks for sharing it with us.
I am so looking forward to class tonight. I had to work on sunday so I missed the service, how I wish I could have been there.
Good comments everyone, see you tonight.
Annette
Where is Donna?
Where is Robin?
I miss your/their comments!
Do i still have time to try and get wayne blackballed? Are we sure he is the kind of person we want helping lead our church? Lets look at the facts. 1. Wayne has led his family well and has succeeded in raising a wonderful christian family. 2. Wayne lives his life for other people, is understanding, compassionate, intelligent, and has great bible wisdom. 3. Wayne lives the life of one truly dedicated to bringing people to God through Jesus. Well i guess on second thought he probably is qualified he is an old man. tw
We had an interesting time in my “Listening For God” class last night. We had a good discussion about flocks and community. The general thought was that many did not/do not understand what we were/are trying to accomplish with them. We are soon going to do some serious evaluation about them. Funny and interesting that I came across this reading later last night. It is from the The Company of Preachers book. This quote speaks to some of what we are trying to accomplish with flocks and especially speaks to what I am trying to accomplish in my preaching and Bible classes. I am totally “sold” on a communal, collaborative approach to learning. The following quotes are from Justo and Catherine Gonalez.
For too long there has been in Protestant circles an excessive emphasis on private Bible study. There is no doubt that such study is necessary. It does not take ten people working together to look up a word in a Hebrew lexicon. When one adds to this the devotional dimension, there is also no doubt that there is an important place in the Christian life for private devotions, and that these ought to be centered on the study of the Bible. But the problem comes when we say that private Bible study is somehow better or deeper or more meaningful than corporate study – when we forget that the Bible comes out of community and is addressed to a community. As a result of this individualistic approach to the Bible, there are some in our culture for whom private reading of Scripture and prayer are the ultimate forms of Christian worship, and for whom, therefore, the church is a dispensable item. One does not need the community of faith for the reading or understanding of Scripture. One’s own interpretation is quite sufficient.
The impact of a purely individualistic reading of Scripture goes far beyond what immediately comes to mind – a loss of the sense of being a community. It also obscures from us some of the dimensions of what Scripture may be saying.
Scripture is addressed to a community, and to individuals as part of that gathering. Even read privately, there is the need to see that the Word comes to us as those who are called to or are already part of the People of God. Scripture itself often calls the community of faith to remember their ancestors – either their sinfulness so that the current People would not be so tempted, or their faith which should be continued.
Just as it is not the same to read a sermon as it is to hear it preached, it is not the same to read the Bible in private as it is to read and hear it being read in the midst of the People of God. The Lone Ranger student of the Bible loses a great deal that cannot be regained by any amount of study or private devotion.
What do you think of all this? Why do people choose not to participate in classes, flocks, and other small groups that are available to them?
Where have I been? Hm, no place, really. I guess that, to me, the subject matter isn't that debatable. Divorce is bad; Wayne is good :0). These are givens. All the previous posts have been right on course, and I had little to add. Although, I do have a thought about what Ryan and Brent were saying about lack of involvement. I think our standard of living has more to do with lack of volunteers to help with church work. When I say that, I mean that our ever-higher standard of living becomes increasingly more expensive. To support it, women have had to leave home to work. Historically, the women have been the ones who did a lot of the grunt work in running the church and its various benevolence programs. Since most families need Mom to work, she's no longer available for other things. Also, we've made our lives insanely busy. I know of few families whose kids don't have a whole slew of extra-curricular activities they're involved in, making their parents little more than chauffeurs. I think it may have less to do with unwillingness to get involved, than a sense that "something has to give."
Donna
First, in response to Donna's note. I do think our standard of living plays a part but I look at it from the standpoint that we are too busy collectively to be involved. I had not nor did I look at it being a male female issue. It seems to me that everyone has too much to do and something gets bumped.
With respect to the flocks, it seems that the lack of participation is based partially on the idea of "what do I benefit?" Instead of approaching it as with a servent heart and saying what does some one else gain from this. Kind of the Kennedy principal. "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" ( I know that is not actually what he said). My point being, I think we too often look at these things as to what we gain not what we give.
RR
I'm not really trying to state it as a male-female thing, either. I"m just saying that the way we live our lives has changed a lot,one way being that half the population doesn't have as much free time as they once did to devote to church work. (Don't worry; this isn't a feminist screed, just a statement of fact.)
In regards to the flocks, I think they're a good idea. But I'm not sure how realistic it is to arbitrarily divvy people into various groups and expect them to form close friendships.
Donna
Good couple of posts; thanks! I think so much of the "busyness" is tied to our unhealthy financial practices that come from our materialistic mindset, which then trickles heavily into the Kingdom. The reason we don't give more is that we don't have much to give. We are to busy trying to keep our heads above the sea of debt. I had the priviledge of listening to Dave Ramsey for a little while today. He quoted Billy Graham, something to this effect, "A person won't be right with God until they get right with their money."
Let me pose a couple of questions late in this blog week: Was it unrealistic to "force" Jews and Gentiles into the same body and tell them to be united? (I don't need to cite the numerous N.T. passages, do I?) If we "self-select" our flocks, then what would that look like? "If you only love those who love you, then what reward is in that?" Now, who said something like that? Hmmm.
If I recall correctly, Jews and Gentiles did self-select their groups by converting to Christianity and joining the congregation in their area. Also, if memory serves, they had huge problems getting along. I'm not saying everyone shouldn't get along and be friends. That's a given. I'm just saying it may be unrealistic to expect the kind of close ties you're working toward by forcing people together who wouldn't ordinarily socialize on their own. Friendships are organic, and usually spring from common ground.
Donna
Yes, the common ground mentioned in Ephesians 4:1-6.
The Corinthians "self-selected." Read chapter 1 for starters, but then come to chapter 11:17 ff.
I think we give up way to easily on building community, and it is a result of enlightened thought which makes the individual the most important thing. I think God values community more.
My "quote posts" on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday are attempts to bring this out.
Hey, I appreciate the discussion! I have to leave here soon to be really stupid (running a marathon).
I agree that Enlightenment thinking has gone too far in exalting the individual. And, I'm not giving up on community building. Quite the contrary. But, let's do something that works! Instead of grinding our gears trying to recreate an idealized version of the 1st century church, let's do something that works, here and now, in the 21st century.
(Good luck on your race!)
Donna
I sure could use your prayers this morning! I am having trouble completing this week's sermon. I usually try to complete my sermons on Thursdays and try to take Friday as a "day off." (Sometimes that actually happens.) I am still working on this sermon about Truth Telling. Hopefully and prayerfully everything will "click" in place at some point today! Any additional thoughts about what Jesus is telling US with this passage?
“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.’ But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your `Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ `No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.”
Tony and I are going out to run for a while this morning. I have 5.4 degrees right now. He's crazy, and I have been trying to reform him for the last 10+ years.
We are having our Sunday School over tonight for our class party. As one class member said, "It is the party of the year."
I hope you have a great Friday and are looking forward to Sunday!
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