John 5:31-47
"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid. You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. I do not accept praise from men, but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God ? But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"
What is the overall point of this passage? How would you summarize it in a sentence or two?
How does it fit with the entire Gospel?
What is the relationship between Jesus and Scripture? What does Jesus accuse the Jews of in regard to Scripture?
What else is on your mind?
Saturday, June 07, 2008
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What do you think of this: Pastor questions sports on Sundays? Here’s an excerpt:
"The anxiety of 'Do I go to church or do I take my kid to the soccer game?' is a weekly ordeal," said Mossa, a pastor at the Presbyterian Church of Whippany. "It's letting the team down versus letting God down."
Mossa is part of a group of pastors from eight Hanover churches that is asking township officials to ban sports games on Sunday mornings.
The group, called the Hanover Township Interreligious Council, approached the township committee last month for help in "restoring sacredness to the Sabbath." The holy day, the group contends, is crucial during a time when divorce rates and substance abuse appear to be on the rise.
I’ve been bothered by youth sports on Sundays, especially Sunday morning, for a long time. I am even more troubled by Christian parents who choose to do sports instead of worship. What are they teaching their kids?
Do you think the church should try persuade a secular society to keep Sundays free from sports, at least during the morning worship time?
What should Christians do when secular activities conflict with Sunday morning worship?
How does our view of the Lord’s Day impact all this?
I actually think this is pretty related to our text this week.
I too have always been concerned with youth sports and other activities held on Sundays.
I think it shows where your priorities are. It also shows your kids.
That being said, I have been guilty of missing a Sunday or two for car related events. That's one reason I quite attending the Brickyard 400 after 10 years straight. They changed it from Saturdays to Sunday and it just didn't feel right to be there.
Yesterday, I attended a car show in Indy, but that's becuase Dad, Marty and I went up on Saturday and got marooned there till Sunday. We figured that since we were there and couldn't get home, we might as well stick around, attend the show and then come home later when things would be opened up.
I have to admit though, something was still bugging me about it.
I did tell Marty that normally, we wouldn't do soemthing like this on Sunday. I've also kept my kids from doing activities with their friends if they weren't attending church with us or with their friends.
I guess we've missed while on vacation too, but we were together as a family. Maybe that's how the sports get justified??
It's a tough topic in a busy world.
It definitly adds teeth to the scripture:
I must become less, he must become greater....
Brent
More about Sundays in a little while...
On Saturday we were in Terre Haute for Rachel Rose’s wedding. Kedra had offered to host a bridesmaid’s breakfast, so we had to leave home at 5 a.m. in order to have the breakfast ready to serve at 8. Me being me checked the radar before I left home. YIKES! There was this big glob of rain right over TH that stretched over most of our driving route. It was ugly.
I was whipping along pretty well in the rain in the dark when all of sudden I hit a small lake in the road. I held steady while Kedra was freaking out. Whew! We survived that and made it into and through Spencer where we were met by police cars blocking the road. “The road is closed sir, due to high water.” “But we need to get to Terre Haute.” “You’re not going to make it.” We chatted for a little while and figured out that we could drop down to Linton and go that way, and we did.
We got on 41 and could not believe the water! Wow! We made it to the church building and survived everything just fine. Sadly a lot of people who were planning to come to the wedding did not/could not make it.
I was concerned that we would not make it home, but we were able to retrace our route through Linton and had no trouble. There was water everywhere, however.
Sherron was also in TH on Saturday, and she snapped some pictures. I think you can see them HERE.
Here's the Fields Men's Story of a Car Show Trip gon wrong.
Dad, Marty and I had been planning to attend this big car show in Indianapolis (over around Clairmont at Raceway Park) for months. I had originally planned to drive my old car up and we were going to meet up with my brother in Bargersville, hit the show and then drive over to the big Greenwood cruise-in on Saturday night. That's what I get for planning.
Friday night, I saw that bad weather was a possiblity. I didn't want to run the chance of hitting a hail storm in my car so we decided to run with the plan and take Mom and Dad's Tahoe instead.
I get up on Saturday morning and watch the weather. My first indication that this was a bad idea was reports that 37 was closed north of B-town. Being the hard core motorheads that we are, the decision was made to take 50 to Seymour then up 65.
By Columbus, the sky was really menacing, but I just kept saying "it's just a cell, it'll blow through, then we'll be OK". When I started seeing the water coming up close to the interstate, I should have turned around.
We drove through a torrential rainstorm for many miles.
Guess where we decide to turn off to get to Bargersville - Franklin! After we got detoured, drove through about three lakes and saw a lot of water we finally got to my brother's house via Whiteland. By the time we got to his house, we decided that we needed to forego the show and get back home.
In order to condense the story of a 6-7 hour journey into this blog, I'll just name off the roads and towns we encoutered in the order that we saw them:
Interstate 65 to Edinburg, back to Greenwood, over to 37, south to Smith Valley Road, back north and over to 67 south to 39 to Martinsville (ask me about that later) back to 67 south to paragon, north to 39 over to 70 West to 231 detour north to 40,west to 59 roadblock back to Indy back to Bargersville to give up at about 8:30pm.
Since we woke up to sunny skies and didn't know how we were getting home on Sunday, we decided to go to the show. Luckily, I saw a friend of mine there and he assured me that we could get back on 65. Hi-way 50 beyond Brownstown is higher than I've ever seen it. I hope I get home today.
I know this is long winded, but believe me I condensed it as far as possible!
All because I'm hard-headed.
I've seen homes, cars and brides underwater. I've seen things floating along in places they shouldn't float. I've seen airboats in mall parking lots. I've seen US Coast Guard helicopters.
It was an adventure.
Brent
Ouch!!! ha! Probably havent had too many blog replies started out that way.
Tough call and tough topic from a "soccer dad".
While youth sports are a quick an easy topic, there are a lot of other events out there as well. Brent mentioned car shows which have always been a big topic. Drag racing at local tracks is a Sunday deal. Allen as you well know, several road races including some of the biggest ones in the country are Sunday events. Livestock shows, etc. Always choices and always challenges.
Let me play the "devil's advocate" for a minute.
Is it ok to miss Sunday evening and not Sunday a.m.? What if you attend Sunday p.m. service but miss the a.m.? What if you go to SS but not worship hour? Hmmm , tough one isnt it?
Is a church event/conflict acceptable to keeping you from attending church service? Example is the return from WInterfest. Is that acceptable in the fact that you attending twice on Saturday, once on Friday and once on Sunday morning? Hmm again, tough call. If you miss you miss right? Why is it different if you are traveling from a church function versus an athletic event? Those who have attended a WF trip know that on the route home, 99% of the time is spent sleeping so the Christian fellowship is not a good excuse.
Take for example ( Allen dont be offended by this PLEASE) the Sunday evening fellowship at your place in July. Is that acceptable to attend versus service? I dont recall the Lord's supper being offered, I dont recall a message, etc. We accept that becuase of the fellowship of our church family. Why is this different than say a group of Christian bikers missing service to ride together?
I honestly struggle with this a lot. Tough call.
We did make a change and both kids dont miss unless absolutely necessary.
Also, though, i have to admit, i have spent some quality time with my daughters going to and from these games on Sunday that would not have happened otherwise. Maybe rationalizing that some what but it is true.
Brent, not picking on you either but wouldnt the right choice have been to find a church in the area and visited that instead of going to the show? thinking "actions speak louder than words" in this case, telling Marty one thing and doing something else. hmm.
Honestly, I think you, me and a lot of others face this type of situation a lot and these are just examples of how we rationalize.
I have even said that God gave Bret the talent to play on this team of highly talented young ladies and it would be wrong to not let her develop the talent.
Allen, when you figure out all the answers let me know. Ha ha :)
Brent, Allen, you know I love you guys and not slamming you or poking sticks in your eyes to keep me out of the fire.
RR
Hey, I don't have time to respond in full right now, but I will respond fully later.
Ryan, I didn't post that for you! I have talked about this for years, and this article just caught my eye. I would never get so pointed as to single out one person. And I know you are not saying that.
I think this could be a really good healthy conversation.
I am heading to Indy and have doubts about internet access until tomorrow, so be patient with me.
Thanks!
I promise to get back to our conversation about the Lord's Day, but I have been so blessed by this string of Scriptures that I wanted to share it with you now.
Matthew 5:3
(3) Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Psalms 51:6-12
(6) Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. (7) Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. (8) Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. (9) Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. (10) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. (11) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. (12) Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psalms 51:14-15
(14) Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. (15) O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
Psalms 51:1-2
(1) Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. (2) Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Ryan, we've been friends for a long time and, like Allen, my comments weren't aimed at you. They were general observations, issues that I've struggled with too. I know that if I asked Jesus he would probably say that I need to be with the brotherhood on the first day of the week. I'm not sure he would be more specific than that.
Yep, I could have found a church that wasn't under water on Sunday and worshipped instead of the car show. I'm not sure I was in the right state of mind or attire at the time due to the fact I intended to be back home on Saturday night. (I was doing a lot of praying though :]). I also tried to get home in time to meet on Sunday night, but I didn't make it there either.
I know that there are times in my life when I'm going to miss Sunday morning. I try really hard not to.
I don't know if there's a right answer and I'm not sure how I'll be judged on that in the end.
I grew up in the church and I'm programmed to be there on Sunday morning. I guess I'm more concerned about the new folks who may not have our foundation. You know how easy it would be to roll back over and stay in bed on some Sunday mornings but we don't because....we just don't. We've got the foundation, some folks don't. Some folks might not return after racing season, hunting season, etc...
Sometimes, maybe it's more of a inner habit than the desire to be church. I know there's been mornings that I've drug myself in, but I always gain something from being there on Sunday morning. It may come from the sermon, the singing, a prayer or just the fellowship.
I guess, as humans blessed with free will, we can always find something else to do than what we ought to sometimes.
If we are striving to grow our relationship with God, we wouldn't let anything get in the way. I'm just not sure sometimes we are striving on our end, he is.
Striving takes effort and priority. I'm not sure any of us are good at that. Think about Jesus audience, they risked being put to death to meet on Sunday. Now that's striving!
I would say if we would have had this discussion before this last weekend, I might have done things differently.
Ryan, no harm done on this end, hope I didn't your way either.
Brent
Here’s what I started before RR wrote:
I appreciate Brent’s honest comments regarding Sunday.
What is your view of Sunday? The New Testament calls it the Lord’s Day, and I think our understanding of it should be informed somewhat from the First Covenant’s understanding of Sabbath. I’ll just leave that there.
I think too many people don’t really understand or appreciate the assembly of the church on Sunday. I believe it to be sacred. I believe it is where the past, present, and future all converge. It is not simply something that God asks us to do; it is not a thing to check off a list. It is a meeting, an encounter with God.
^^^^^^^^
OK, now let me try to be “God’s advocate” regarding all this.
1. This conversation is not aimed at RR or anyone in particular. I see it as a very broad problem (in my view) that reaches across many boundaries.
2. I am not picking on sports per se, but it seems to be the most obvious and biggest “competitor” to Sunday a.m. worship. The world has the right to do what it wants on that day. My “complaint” is with Christians who choose to follow the world. Where does it end up? See 1 John 2:15-17.
3. And I am talking about Sunday a.m. worship and not other assemblies. Why am I talking about Sunday a.m.? Because I make a pretty big distinction between it and other assemblies. Why? Because it is the time when communion is served. It is also the time that the elders, in their desire to honor and please God on his day, have chosen that we as a church will gather. It is during this assembly that we give, sing, pray as a corporate body, and hear the word of God preached. God has always been big on instruction and teaching. I am clearly biased but I think preaching is very important. I spend a lot of time in preparation.
If I understand Scripture, then the angels gather with us. It is a heavenly event that happens to take place on earth. The gathered church becomes a visible presence in this world, expressing our belief in the invisible (see Hebrews 11:1-3). Unity forms out of diversity. Lives scattered abroad all week come together in a common purpose and ideal: worship that leads to transformation.
I think something sacred, sacramental happens during our gathering: we encounter God in a way that we don’t at any other time during the week. We give to him, and we receive from him. Just what is communion all about? I don’t think it is a “memorial feast.” Certainly we are to remember, but it is an active remembrance. It is to be done in community. It is a meal that is a foretaste of the Messianic Banquet. Jesus is present! How can we afford to miss it?
In our assembly we are bringing past, present, and future together in the name of Jesus. We remember and honor the “great cloud of witnesses” who have gone on before. We are continuing their journey and the work they began. They gather at the throne of God with us, I think (Read Revelation). We thank God who is present with us in the presence, and we dream of the day that we will be in his presence fully.
In our assembly we reminded that the future is present to us now, through Jesus. We have begun eternal life.
I am frustrated that I cannot express better right now what I feel, but maybe challenges to it will sharpen my thoughts and I can make better words.
I know there are times that we miss and need to miss and have to miss. I don’t see Sunday morning as thing to check off. I think it is a wonderful opportunity to encounter God. It’s his day and his idea. There should be no attempt to separate Sunday’s activities with the rest of the week. They flow together. What happens on Sunday prepares us to live for the Lord the rest of the week. I think there is so much that stands behind these often almost flippantly quoted words from Hebrews 10.25:
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
What about our other assemblies? I think they are very important as well. We are a body, a community, a family, an army. I am big believer in communal collaboration. That’s what I see in Scripture through and through. That’s the way I preach, and that’s our goal in preparing the worship assembly.
Here’s another question that is related to this conversation: Why not stay at home and worship with your family?
Hey, what about our passage for the week?
Do you think we can get so bogged down in Scripture that we fail to encounter the Word who became flesh?
Maybe that's part of the issue with Sunday morning attendance? People perceive it more as a rule to obey or to be broken than an encounter with the living Lord?
It's a lot easier to live by rules than it is to live in relationship, right?
Hey Allen
I am going to continue to play devil's advocate here.
If Sunday a.m. is "the" service, then why do we meet on Sunday p.m. and if why offer communion on Sunday p.m.? Honestly, i have been puzzled by that not being an option in the life groups. Maybe I missed what you meant.
Brent, ( no hard feelings here either and I know you know that as well as I know I am not going to make you mad either). Again, be the DA, you said you were dressed appropriately. where is God's dress code? I think (my opinion) that is a good example of where we make rationalizations to explain our actions.
Recently, I have read a several books about worship and the church today and i see that in a lot of them. It also goes along with some of the thoughts in Jim & Casper.
Allen, I know you werent picking on me. it is a very interesting topic though but i think it is too easy just to pick out one target such as youth sports.
To answer your question about why not just worship with your family, i say that is because God directs us to fellowship with our brothers and sisters and to build those bonds.
Personally, i think these types of discussions are healthy.
rr
To add to Allen's statement about community.
I firmly beleive that we are facing a time when the opportunity to meet on Sunday's is going to be more important to build communal spiritual strength.
Some of us may not have our work relationships. We may not have the money to maintain our social relationships through sports, hobbies, etc...
The upcoming economic situation is going to really test everyone's faith.
The preparation for the week's battles is going to really mean something to us. IT's not going to be issue like "Lord, help me to deal with this difficult person or situation at work" if might be "Lord, help me to get a job."
This will be where we see who has real faith, who builds on it and who falls away.
Brent
Brent
i was thinking about the economic issue. i can see us facing issues with decling church budgets but also declining attendance. some may say or may not be able to afford to drive to church ( we have some who drive a long way) they may look for alternatives such as other churches, small home groups etc. very interesting and challenge times possibly ahead.
in the book jim&casper, one of the pastors of a church visited said it is not giving until it impacts your life style. i really think we may see that in our near future.
rr
Ryan, I too think this is a healthy conversation, and I really appreciate your willingness to express honest ideas, thoughts, and challenges. From such conversations comes learning. Thanks!
I think we can offer communion in LIFE Groups if that’s what needs to happen. I think each group has the freedom to decide that. Having said that I think we need to be careful that LIFE Groups do not became a substitute for the corporate gathering. I believe the morning worship (in our case) is the time to gather with everyone, to encounter God as his body. LIFE Groups are less about worship and more about fellowship and instruction and encouragement. The same is true of other gatherings of the church.
You are exactly right, in my opinion, why we don’t just meet with our families in our homes. We need to experience diversity of thought and beyond. If we only meet with people we like or people like us, then I don’t think we have the opportunity to learn and grow much. There is a biblical principle of learning coming from the outside to be received on the inside. We need instruction that ultimately comes from God, mediated through others. It needs to be tested, challenged, then rejected or received.
Faith grows out of doubt, right? Or at least shouldn't it, at times?
I think Ryan's quote regarding giving not being true giving until it changes your lifestyle has some validity. I'm not sure I totally buy (no pun intended) it.
I would like to hear more folks opinions on this. I know how I feel about Sunday morning because of the way I was raised. I'm not sure if I always thought of it at the differnt levels that he states, but hey he's a Doctor what do you expect! ;]
I just wonder if everyone else "gets it" like that.
I know that folks who didn't grow up the way we did have different reasons for coming. I think some have a lot more spiritual connection than we do.
They may have had a life a lot darker than we ever had and see church as their sancuatary (hmmm, sanctuary). In many cases, Sunday msy be the highlight of their week.
Is it always ours?
I think we want to say it's always for the reasons that Allen listed, but is it always? It might be for Allen because he's got a different perspective than most.
Let's face it, if Allen rolls over and goes back to sleep, he might have a little different repercussions than us. ;}
Brent
On a completely unrelated note:
A lady was hurt really bad today out in our plant.
I don't know all of the details, but she was lifelined to Indy with major head injuries. They've put her in an induced coma.
Her family needs our prayers.
I think her name is Debbie Hamilton, but I'm still trying to confirm.
Brent
We need instruction that ultimately comes from God, mediated through others. It needs to be tested, challenged, then rejected or received.
I love that! Good summary there Allen. This is also what i think this blog is all about too. Great venue to have these types of discussions ( a lot easier too than doing this while running!)
Back on my comment about it is not giving until it affects your lifestyle. That is really a deep thought to me that i continue to hash out. i think there is a huge discussion and study with that one.
not sure that brent, myself or allen disagree as much as it appears but i am still troubled to try and make sense of a lot of this. i know you didnt say this exactly but i never ever thought about "rating" the attendance opportunities differently. interesting. i see your point but never looked at it that way. as brent said probably the way i was raised that if the doors were open my butt was to be in the pew. period. i think though as brent sort of mentioned, is that what we believe, feel or just ingrained? this goes along with the book "spilt grape juice" which challenges a lot of what is not really biblical direction but tradition instead.
allen made a comment about the life groups that i was waiting for some one to say. i agree we need to be careful not to let these become "our church time". we cant plateau but need to take the energy and synergy from those to the whole body. along that line those who become invovled who are not active memembers or who may not even attend regularly, we need to get them through the doors.
rr
Three months after returning from my sabbatical I am still unpacking thoughts and feelings, trying to sort them out. I think I am going to have an opportunity to go New Zealand to do some short-term teaching in the next year or two. That excites me.
I keep thinking about Russia, Greece, and Turkey, primarily Russia and Turkey. I want to go back!
I found these two items in a Christian news summary I receive each day. They both involve persecution of Christians in Turkey.
Turkey: Church Fights to Keep Doors Open
According to human rights group International Christian Concern, a church in the Turkish capital of Ankara is being forced to close its doors by local government. ASSIST News Service reports that Batikent Protestant Church is one of the very few Protestant churches which have been legally recognized in Turkey after winning a series of precedent-setting court cases. On June 2, however, police officers served the pastor with a notice requiring the closing because it is meeting in a building unapproved as a place of worship. Daniel Wickwire, the founding pastor at Batikent Protestant Church, has already fought - and won - a legal battle over zoning code violations last year. Wickwire, a missionary for 23 years, said, "It is very obvious that what is happening to our church is a pre-meditated, continuous and jointly orchestrated direct attack against the church as a whole in Turkey by the right-wing Islamic government (AK Party) that is currently in control in Turkey." Wickwire has been involved in over 15 court cases in the last 6 years in order to keep the church doors open.
Turkey: Murder Suspect Accuse Each Other
Compass Direct News reports that all seven suspects on trial for the brutal murder of three Christians in Turkey in April 2007 appeared in court Tuesday -- each one protesting his innocence and incriminating one or more of the others. The hearing in eastern Turkey marked the first time all seven have appeared together in court to be cross-examined over contradictions among their individual court testimonies. In addition to the five accused murderers -- Hamit Ceker, Cuma Ozdemir, Abuzer Yildirim, Salih Gurler and Emre Gunaydin -- two others, Kursat Kocadag and Mehmet Gokce, face charges as accomplices. Turkish Christians Necati Aydin and Ugur Yuksel and German Christian Tilmann Geske were tied up, stabbed and tortured for several hours before their throats were slit at Zirve Publishing offices. Four of the suspects have said they were afraid of Gunaydin because of his alleged connections with local police and mafia figures, coupled with his violent threats against them and their families if they tried to pull out of the plot.
I agree, RR, that the blog can serve as place of helpful dialogue, just like this week!
I think LIFE Groups must always be viewed as a part of what we are doing and not become a separate entity. I think our leadership has a good grip on all that.
It's clear to me that I/we need to do a better job of communicating the sacred nature of our Sunday morning worship that centers around Word and Table. The book you referred (by Mike Root) is one, I think, that focuses more on worship from a sociological level. In other words the assembly is more about us than about God. This view is common and maybe dominant.
I've read the Jim and Casper book that you referenced earlier. It provides some very helpful insights about how church is done. The thing that bothers me about it is that is has such a low view of church. Evidently they have not read past the gospels (ha ha). They are just a little mixed up about history and theology, I think, providing no Scripture support for their views. Again, they do say some helpful things, but it is clear to me that they do not understand worship as described in the Bible.
Worship is about encountering God with a view of him transforming/changing us as we consider him and our relationship through him. I think there is a mystical side to it that we fail to discuss. Look for me to have more to say about this soon! ha ha.
We all love you rr. You always help us think.
In our book, A Gathered People: Revisioning the Assembly as Transforming Encounter, John Mark Hicks, Bobby Valentine and I argue that the value and importance of the Lord's Day assembly is not simply a matter of obeying a "positive law," but instead it has a genuinely sacramental character. That is, God meets his people in the Lord's Day assembly and applies his sanctifying work to their lives. Baptism, Lord's Supper, and the Lord's Day function as sacramental events transforming lives into the likeness of God. We neglect either of them to our spiritual peril.
Thanks Dr. Melton! I highly recommend the book that Johnny co-authored with Hicks and Valentine. I don’t know Bobby, but I can assure you that Johnny and John Mark are two of the sharpest minds around. The book is great!
Concerning our children in sports. As parents we would seem at times to sit on the fence. If we told our daughter no to sports that played their games on sunday we knew that we were not teaching our belief but simpling turning her off and she would be resentful.
We wanted to show her that we can still put God lst.
We decided that if it happened to be on a Sunday. We usually stayed over night and found a church and went to early services. She knew that we felt that God came first with us. Usually we were the only one in the group that did go to Church but we felt that God knew we wanted to be in his presence and was trying to teach her that He came first.
We do the same on Sunday if we are on vacation .
This might not work for everyone but it worked for us and she is a very active Christian and the praise goes to Him!
Hey Anon, thanks for that! You sound thoughtful and wise.
I just got home from Ben’s game. We had a parent who yelled at the teen umpire and then used loud vulgar language with my assistant coach and me, threatening to take his boy home because he was unhappy with the way things were going. It’s just another straw on the back of a camel that is becoming very disillusioned with sports generally. It just doesn’t seem fun anymore. So many people are unhappy a lot. That’s my perception based on about 15 years of experience with my own kids. It saddens me. I think sports can be a wonderful thing and very instructive about life principles.
My boys had the opportunity to play “all-stars” a few times over the years. We made it plain before it started that we would not miss Sunday worship to play sports. The boys never argued, and the coaches always understood and were nice about it. No penalty was experienced, best I could tell.
I remember 2-3 years ago Ben’s BB team did well during the Friday and Saturday portion of a weekend tournament. Sure enough they played themselves into a 10 a.m. Sunday morning game. We told the coach Ben would not be there; we were going to worship. The coach was fine with it. Later we were talking to parents in the stands about the situation. A couple of couples were pretty strong church-goers, except when ball-games took priority. They were kind of amazed at our stance. I kindly said, “You know if all Christians would say, ‘our kid is not going to play on Sunday morning’ the tournaments would soon quit scheduling games during that time.” I believe that. I do not think the way to win the world is to compromise the most important aspect of our faith - worshiping God.
For me, “Seek first the Kingdom of God” applies to all things, including worship with my brothers and sisters.
I don’t mean to sound so... don’t know what word I am looking for. I guess I am just saying that this is the deep conviction that I have and strive to live by. It is based strongly on my understanding of Scripture.
If you don’t agree, then I will respectfully disagree with you. I will love you the same, and we’ll continue to walk as friends.
OK, time for some popcorn and bed. Gotta a long run with Tony in the morning! It’s gonna be HOT!
Peggy Noonan is one of my favorite political writers. I faithfully read her article in the Wall Street Journal each Friday. In today’s article she says some things that I believe are very relevant to what I see happening in the church across the country. She is contrasting old and new America, as represented by McCain and Obama.
In the Old America, love of country was natural. You breathed it in. You either loved it or knew you should.
In the New America, love of country is a decision. It's one you make after weighing the pros and cons. What you breathe in is skepticism and a heightened appreciation of the global view.
Old America: Tradition is a guide in human affairs. New America: Tradition is a challenge, a barrier, or a lovely antique.
The Old America had big families. You married and had children. Life happened to you. You didn't decide, it decided. Now it's all on you. Old America, when life didn't work out: "Luck of the draw!" New America when life doesn't work: "I made bad choices!" Old America: "I had faith, and trust." New America: "You had limited autonomy!"
Old America: "We've been here three generations." New America: "You're still here?"
Old America: We have to have a government, but that doesn't mean I have to love it. New America: We have to have a government and I am desperate to love it. Old America: Politics is a duty. New America: Politics is life.
The Old America: Religion is good. The New America: Religion is problematic. The Old: Smoke 'em if you got 'em. The New: I'll sue.
Mr. McCain is the old world of concepts like "personal honor," of a manliness that was a style of being, of an attachment to the fact of higher principles.
Mr. Obama is the new world, which is marked in part by doubt as to the excellence of the old. It prizes ambivalence as proof of thoughtfulness, as evidence of a textured seriousness.
Both Old and New America honor sacrifice, but in the Old America it was more essential, more needed for survival both personally (don't buy today, save for tomorrow) and in larger ways.
The Old and New define sacrifice differently. An Old America opinion: Abjuring a life as a corporate lawyer and choosing instead community organizing, a job that does not pay you in money but will, if you have political ambitions, provide a base and help you win office, is not precisely a sacrifice. Political office will pay you in power and fame, which will be followed in time by money (see Clinton, Bill). This has more to do with timing than sacrifice. In fact, it's less a sacrifice than a strategy.
A New America answer: He didn't become a rich lawyer like everyone else—and that was a sacrifice! Old America: Five years in a cage—that's a sacrifice!
In the Old America, high value was put on education, but character trumped it. That's how Lincoln got elected: Honest Abe had no formal schooling. In Mr. McCain's world, a Harvard Ph.D. is a very good thing, but it won't help you endure five years in Vietnam. It may be a comfort or an inspiration, but it won't see you through. Only character, and faith, can do that. And they are very Old America.
Old America: candidates for office wear ties. New America: Not if they're women. Old America: There's a place for formality, even the Beatles wore jackets!
* * *
I weigh this in favor of the Old America. Hard not to, for I remember it, and its sterling virtues. Maybe if you are 25 years old, your sense of the Old and New is different. In the Old America they were not enlightened about race and sex; they accepted grim factory lines and couldn't even begin to imagine the Internet. Fair enough. But I suspect the political playing out of a long-ongoing cultural and societal shift is part of the dynamic this year.
As to its implications for the race, we'll see. America is always looking forward, not back, it is always in search of the fresh and leaving the tried. That's how we started: We left tired old Europe and came to the new place, we settled the east and pushed West to the new place. We like new. It's in our genes. Hope we know where we're going, though.
There is a lot of unsettledness, angst about church, it seems to me. As we struggle to figure it all out, we must not lose sight of where we are going. There’s only One Way to know, right? I think we must be careful that we not leave behind all the words that reveal the Word.
Having said that, we need also be aware of our text/story for this week. There is a useless way of diligently searching the Scriptures. Such a search is useless if it does not lead to a relationship with the Author; it’s useless if it does not lead to transformation.
There is a book I read a few years ago, After Heaven - Spirituality in America Since the 1950s, that contrasts two ways of spirituality: dwelling and seeking. I think that explains well what is going on today. It’s not unlike Ms Noonan’s secular explanation.
We are all different, and it seems that our differences are becoming more marked and discussed. I’m not sure what to think of all that, but I do know that we are called to unity in Jesus. If the Jews and Gentiles were put into one body by God, then I’m sure he expects us to
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. [Eph. 4:3]
I think these are challenging times, but I am energized by them. We have a great opportunity to bring God the glory he deserves by learning to love one another in spite of our differences. We prove that we love God and that his love is in us by loving one another. Right?
Allen you need to put this:
""We have a great opportunity to bring God the glory he deserves by learning to love one another in spite of our differences. We prove that we love God and that his love is in us by loving one another."" great quote!!
up on the big screen Sunday in big huge bold letters. You hit the nail right. It key's all your points of sports, competition, arguments, Sunday worship, Sabbath, and most important this weeks scripture lesson. And the most important word or fact that God and Jesus wants us to focus on and live by is "Love". The word "Love" and how we act upon it and live by it and use it and share it will either get us into heaven or not. It's that simple, i'm not a scholar nor can I probably spell it, but That word "Love" has to be the maker or breaker for everything Heaven or hell. If we don't have Love for God, Jesus, and All our fellow humans then we prove to God that we don't have faith in Him. and if we don't have true faith and love then why would he let us into heaven??
thanks,
Jon Goller
What about the people who work on sunday morning? What about the people who watch "church t.v."? I have always questioned the thought that you must attend sunday morning. I feel that if you can't attend you can still be christ-like and act like a christian. I feel that those shut-ins and people who work or attend sunday events can be great christians. I would not like to be a bad example but I know there are people who attend every sunday but go to the bars saturday night.
Those are good questions Anon. Let me answer the easy one first. TV church, in my mind, is not church at all. There is no community, no interaction--none of the things that make church church.
God certainly understands each person's situation in life and their ability to worship him. Some people have no choice but to work on Sunday, and I think they have to do the best they can. Perhaps the church should accomodate them in some way? I think this could be a reason for a LIFE Group to have communion.
As far as the Saturday night bar and Sunday morning attendance thing. Maybe they are in there to evangelize? Maybe they don't understand the tranformative nature of worship? We all have problems and sin, so we try to encourage/challenge each other to do better.
What I have tried to do this week on this blog is present an ideal that I think we often do not grasp.
Thanks for all the input!
Come back next week, because the conversation could get even more interesting.
I should have added:
What does God think? What does he want?
That's all that really matters, right?
It's not about what I think or want. Our goal is to align our thinking with God's. The only way I know to do that is through the use of Scripture.
correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the mitchell of Christ take off for the Sunday night football superbowl when they thought the colts were going to the superbowl last year. And did not the Mitchell church of Christ close down the evening service for Halloween last year and didnt the Mitchell church of Christ not have service when the Colts did make it to the superbowl two years ago. Rather it was evening service or morning service. The church did not have service am I correct?
Anon, you are probably correct about that. We have often dismissed assemblies for various reasons, some better than others, no doubt, but I am absolutely sure that we have never, ever not had our main worship assembly where we have communion and all the other things we do in our worship encounter with God. The only exception to what I said is inclement weather, which is always a very difficult call to make. Our policy is to not dismiss our morning assembly, even when the weather is really bad.
You need to go back and read what I said about distinquishing between assemblies. I don't think they are equal.
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