Acts 20:28-31
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
To help you really understand the text, you should read verse 17 and then all the way to the end of the chapter 20.
Questions:
- As you read this what are the first things that come to your mind?
- What in this text strikes you as remarkable?
- What is Paul’s mood and tone?
- Can you imagine his face?
- What are Paul’s concerns?
- What "assignments" does he give to the elders of the Ephesian church?
- How this text apply to our present time?
- Why is this story here?
What else is on your mind this week?
74 comments:
Alright. I know the blog has been a bit boring lately. That’s OK, though. I think the blog is a bit like life; maybe it serves as a pretty good metaphor. There are times when you feel good and want to talk. There are other times when you just want to be quiet. Sometimes life is interesting and exciting at other times it is not. I have considered shutting the blog down for the Summer, but I don’t really want to do that. I think it’s best to just let it do whatever it wants to do each week. I have felt pressure (self-imposed) to have something significant and fresh to say everyday or at least 2-3 times a week. Frankly, for me, it just doesn’t work that way. My thoughts and creativity are more like “feast and famine.” Lately, I have been in a famine, but I am OK with that too. I have lived long enough to know that out of the famine comes a period of feasting. I am waiting...
In the meantime I want to know what you think about the role of elders and deacons in our church family. What do you think of when you hear “elder” and “deacon”?
AND
I really do care about what you think about others things as well, so please feel free to blog away here about anything you want, really. We’ll listen for God’s voice in it.
Part of the reason I have been fairly “quiet” on the blog lately is due to a couple of things that are exciting and also just a little intimidating. The first one is the Lilly Grant. [To read the Times Mail coverage of it, you can click Here and Here. Please understanding that I am not complaining AT ALL and am deeply grateful. There are a lot of details to work out, however, and this is fairly time-consuming and requires a lot of thought, especially the Russia/Turkey portion. I don’t want to miss anything. Kedra and I figured out the Australia and New Zealand portion and have it in the hands of the travel agent. I am now working on the rest of it.
The other thing that IS intimidating to me is an invitation to present a paper at the Christian Scholars Conference (CSC). I feel like I am going to a gun fight with a pocket knife! Ha. I enjoy the world of academia, mostly through books now, but it is not a place I want to dwell for too long. Most people have no interest in it, but I find it pretty helpful. My goal as a practical theologian is to bridge the worlds of academia and practical living through simple but informed teaching. This little foray into a world different (CSC) from the one where I do most of my living is interesting. I am kinda scared and excited at the same time.
I enjoyed yesterday. Our morning assembly was a little different, and this was by design. I enjoyed the ending of the assembly the most (those folks who have to leave during the last song missed the best part). It was neat to honor Matthew and welcome/bless Callie Ann. Also, I liked the ending litany or responsive reading.
The dinner to honor Ronnie and Natasha was really nice. I appreciate those who organized it. The Bible has a lot to say about “honor.” What does that mean to you? How do you do it? I think attendance at events like last night is a pretty good way of doing it. I appreciate the opportunity.
Someone said to me recently (and I believe he was quoting someone else) that it is not good to ask someone who is not already doing work in the church to be an elder or a deacon. This presents some problems because alot of our workers,Ralph and Noble to just name a couple, are not eligible to be elders or deacons. The reason they said it wasn't good to ask someone who isn't already doing the work is because often times they will not want to do it after they are asked to work either. Or maybe they don't have the time or energy. I am not saying that we don't have some qualified and dedicated men but doesn't anyone see this as a problem?
And Allen, I hope you keep the blog going thru the summer because it gives those of us uncomfortable speaking in a public setting a chance to try and say what we are thinking. You shouldn't feel like you have to post something everyday if you don't feel like it. Starting us off with the text and some questions should be enough. Like you said, its okay if it doesn't seem like a busy blog week if it gets us thinking, right?
Have a great week!
Diane Slone
Add Terry Tafflinger to that also. These men have more than proven themselves it seems like to me. One more question comes to mind....is that a man made rule or a God written rule that anyone remarried or divorced cannot be a deacon or an elder? What about forgiveness and acceptance for those who have shown themselves to be Godly men? What about Paul and David, God used them in spite of their past or mistakes they made. Maybe it would be a good thing to spell it all out again so everyone can refresh their memories on the why and why nots.
The divorce/re-marriage aspect of a Decon or Elder is one that preplexes me. I think maybe that's where the CoC in general takes the word for word of the bible way to literal. If a man is a godly man and serves the lord his entire life living like Jesus, but his wife left him 20 years prior due to something not of his doing, it seems crazy to me that he should not be considered for the position of Elder or Deacon. By not granting a person of that kind of stature the opportunity of being a Deacon or Elder is like taking judgement into our own hands, which i don't really feel comfortable with. The church would be placing a self imposed cap so to speak which is going to hurt the churchs' grow in all aspects.
Culture has changed unforunantely. Divorce is all around us, it's something like 55% of all marriages. Historically most divores were for things like abuse or infidelity. We all know several examples of friends or family in our lives who have gotten divorced because one of the partners just changed their mind or decided they just wanted to be single. If we have eligible men in our congergation that fit all the criteria, but have been divorced in a fashion that doesn't violate any of the other requirements for being a Deacon or Elder, i see no problem in them becomming "official" leaders of our church.
After reading the last couple of blogs, I would like to know why men who haven't been married or men who are married but with no children can't be elders or deacons. I think that part of scripture (where it says their children must be in good behavior, etc) is taken out of context. I feel that a single man or a childless man could be a good leader in the church, and it is terrible that we overlook those godly men. But, I also think the men who have children should have children who respect/live the word.
Has anyone read the booklet that allen wrote about choosing elders and deacons? Copies were available at worship yesterday, and I'm sure they are still available...I think the booklet does a great job discussing the issue mentioned in the previous posts. Check 'er out.
I will have more to say tomorrow, hopefully, but for now let me say this: church leadership is not found ONLY in elders and deacons. We are gifted, from God, in different ways; not all are gifted to be elders or deacons. There are many ways to work/serve in the church and in the Kingdom of God. I MIGHT be "qualified" to be an elder, but I choose to serve in a different way. More later...
Sunday morning class was great but to be honest, in the last two weeks, I have been pretty disappointed with the second part of the service. Christ says he came for the sick and for some time now, I have been starving to death because no spiritual meat or milk has been put in front of me. Acts 6:1-7 have nothing to do with helping me in any form, shape or size. Moses told the people what God wanted and expected of them. Jesus did the same thing. People come to church to get fed, feed us, teach us, stop telling us the history of the bible. I hear people say, I want to go out and bring people in but I'm scared, I'm embarrass, I don't know what to say. Telling the history of the church is not going to have the church go out and help bring people to God if they arent being taught how. The church can't do the job if the teacher isn't teaching the right material. How can you expect the sick to ever get well, if you arent giving them the right medication.
OK, here is a more or less random-no-particular-order response to previous blog posts.
What is our view of Scripture? Does it govern and guide or just suggest? Is Scripture tied to a particular time and culture or does it transcend those things? And does it do that all the time?
Probably ought to read what the Bible really says about elders and deacons, and the little booklet does help you with that. The main teaching comes from 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1. First Peter 5 is worth looking at as well.
Clearly God wants elders and deacons to be married with children. Why do you think that is? What can we learn by watching a married couple or a family? How does being married and then having children change a person?
I will confess that I am conflicted somewhat by the divorce thing. The Greek literally says, “one man woman.” The Church of Christ is not the only group to take this directive to exclude divorced men from serving as elders and deacons; it is has been a fairly broad interpretation and application, across many centuries and traditions, I think (going on memory here). I think there are circumstances that may be different from what Paul is getting at. For example, a man and woman married as teens; she then “ran off” and left him for a former boyfriend. It’s been 30 years since that time, and he has been happily, spiritually successfully married for 25+ years. Should he be excluded? What are we really looking for?
We must be careful that we not allowing our feelings and desires cloud the teaching of Scripture.
Gino, you really need work on saying what’s on your mind. This subtle approach is just not working, although I think I discern you don’t like the Sunday sermons. You are probably not alone.
I don’t know what to tell you. The narratives in Acts are there for a reason, and I think they are extremely helpful in helping us to be the people of God. I think your approach would ignore a lot of Scripture. I agree that we need to be more evangelistic, and that’s where the narrative in Acts takes us. We on a little side excursion presently as we seek additional leaders in this church.
I think you are doing a wonderful job in your workplace sharing Christ with others. I wish more were like you in that regard.
While reading our text for this week I was struck, right off, by this:
Keep watch over yourselves...
and then:
. . .the Holy Spirit has made you overseers..
then:
Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
Maybe you are coming to church with the right attitude Gino. In my experience if you come to church with the right attitude, or heart you always receive the message God has just for you. Maybe you are closing your eyes and ears so you cannot receive what God is trying to say to you. And then again maybe God is leading you to go elsewhere so you can get what you are after.
One thing I don't understand. When Allen was doing things for you, you were praising God, but now you are criticizing the very same person who helped you so much. Do you realize what that looks like?
It breaks my heart to know that Gino has the nerve to bash not only our church but Allen! Allen has taken you in and has been nothing but good to all of us, especially you Gino. From reading your blogs you seem to always be worried about yourself and I have yet to hear or read about you doing anything for others. Except for all those stories about your mission work here and your mission work there. You have lived in Mitchell for a while now and I have yet to see anything other than complaining and trying to discredit people. Very nice people at that. We have welcomed you with open arms and you sing praises as long as we are feeding you what you WANT!!! That is very selfish and I think you need to apologize to Allen and others you may have hurt with your harsh words.
Hey Allen,
The blog is certainly not boring today!! :o)
Okay........change of subject just a little here......when the Bible says "he must be the husband of one wife" does that mean that a man who has only been married once but whose wife was married before is eligible?
Diane Slone
The post before Diane’s: Now that’s what I call a rebuke! [And maybe a little more.] Go easy. Gino is doing a lot of good work at his place of work. I think Gino is expressing (some would say inappropriately) frustration with me/us because he does not see an emphasis on bringing others to Christ. His frustration is real, and I am aware of the problem. We are working on it.
I think that is an excellent question, Diane. Clearly the passage is written from the standpoint of the man being a “one woman man,” but what if his one woman had a man previously? I was actually pondering that very situation this morning. How do we think/decide about that?
P.S. I am having trouble getting email messages through to anyone who has a Yahoo account. Don’t know why.
I don't think anyone really knows what gino is saying at his place of work, other than what gino brags about. Allen how do you KNOW he isn't doing exactly what he has been doing on this blog? toot toot here for gino, slam bang everyone else. I think gino needs to take his medication.
Maybe one wife means that a man only has one wife (at a time).
I hesitate to say anything because people like Gino are like little kids, they like to get attention in any way they can. However, I think Gino is an example of someone who got a bad start in life and can't overcome his past. The only way he can feel better about himself is to put others down. See what I am doing! You are not as good as I! It is sad if you think about it. I know most of us pity him, and are nice to him, but his behavior makes it very hard to accept him as one of us. He doesn't like us for some reason so it makes me wonder why he continues coming to our church. I know I don't want my kids around his harshness and unloving ways.
I certainly do not agree with the sentiments Gino expressed in his post, and I agree that a "rebuke" given in love was most likely in order, but I think that the personal criticisms being handed out aren't useful for Gino's spiritual growth or his relationship with the church family. Even if you are offended by Gino's comments, your status as his brother or sister in Jesus Christ demands that you treat him with grace and mercy. Please consider how your comments reflect upon the church family and on Jesus himself before you post. Just my two cents.
Allen, you said earlier that you were aware of the problem. We are working on it. How long are we going to be "discussing" how to bring people into the church or to know the love of Jesus? I know you have said previously we are trying to get the food pantry families into church yet all we seem to do is discuss the issue instead of taking our words and putting them into ACTION!!
I have never blogged before, but I am a periodic reader. I feel the blog is for responding to an individual's opinions, but not attacking the intergrity of the individual. We being the body of Christ need to build each other up, while criticizing and critiquing ways to work together. Individual's opinions are neither right or wrong.-Jackie Anderson
i'll tell you what i like about gino, he'll put his stamp of approval on anything he has to say! i see a lot of "the pot calling the kettle black". is there any kingdom work on this blog this week????? i want to see gino in heaven, do you? and are you working toward that goal? i know allen is but are you and i? by the way i think allen can take care of himself. and gino knows how i feel about his blunt speak because we talked about it 1 on 1, a good place to start. i've missed you lately gino, hope work is going well. tw
Ooops I spelt integrity wrong.....see why I don't blog...I can't spell....lol -Jackie Anderson
I am encouraged by the last few blogs.
Okay, I've attempted to stay above this fray, but now feel compelled to put my two cents in. I'm not jumping on the "get Gino" bandwagon, but I don't agree with him, either. Sunday morning worship is not, I repeat, NOT for evangelism. It is to worship and glorify God. It is only secondarilly (sp?) to educate and edify BELIEVERS. If the unchurched come to worship and are moved by the Holy Spirit to accept Christ's offer of salvation, that's wonderful! But, it's not why we're there. I agree that we need a class or program to educate church members on how to share their faith effectively with others, but that's not what the sermon/worship service is about. Hopefully, the sermon and singing focuses our minds on the mercy, compassion, and especially the GLORY of God, which should compel us all to an attitude of thanks to God for His lovingkindness. With a bit of grace, maybe we can extend that to others.
DONNA M. THOMAS
(please notice, I signed my name when I posted my thoughts. I didn't heap criticism and remain anonymous. I think that's impolite, at the least.)
i'm just curious what does the M. stand for? and if we're going to define sunday morning worship maybe we need to also define what the purpose of this blog is. As i agree on your explanation of sunday morning worship being a time to glorify our creator, is this blog the place to beat people up?(rhetorical question) there was a time when i only came to church for meat and milk-it is what i needed at the time, and i still need it, only to a different degree. anyway, lets figure out what format we are dealing with on this "christian" blog and stick with it. by the way, i am always for loving and constructive criticism. and please donna- don't reply to this comment as you have an unfair intellectual advantage. tw
The anonymous option fits my extremely introverted personality quite well, but i'm not here to rip on Gino...as should NOBODY. Debate, like what Donna engages in is great. I love hearing differing opinions on things, but blantely using this board as a platform to air dirty laundry is just pathetic. That negative post is exactly what people hate about churches. I hear people say all the time the church if full of hypocrites. Would Jesus rip on a fellow Christian on an internet blog? I'm thinking not. I'm guessing the person ripping on Gino has never even talked to Gino in their life. As soon as i read that comment, all i could think of was the verse in the bible about casting stones. If you want to discuss matters with Gino, do it face to face. I believe the bible says to do that.
Gino, i dont know you. In fact, i've never talked to you, but you come to church and seem very eager to do so, and that i think is great.
Wow!
I havent been active on this for some time for several reasons. Checked in early Monday and just a few comments and then today I find it has jumped to the 30's. Big topic? I expected it to be a lot of discussion about the divorice thing, but that seems to not be the case.
I think the scripture that started all of this actually ties in quite well. Go back and read it and think about what we have saw here in the last day or so and what has been said.
Not going to bash Gino nor anyone else. I wasnt there Sunday so I dont know if the lesson was bad or good. I do know that Allen presented what he felt that God had placed on his heart to share. Does every Sunday touch every one in the audience and does it meet the needs of everyone there? Absolutely not! So if it only fills the need of only one in attendance is it bad? NO! So we have realize that we all enter the door each week with different needs and those needs are and will be met in different ways and on different time schedules. I personally always try to disect the lesson and see what is in there for me today or for future. Honestly, some times I take away only something for future reference.
With respect to "teaching" us, I dont see Sunday a.m. as the classroom to form us into great missionaries and how to go out. It is called Sunday Worship for a reason. The service should be about worshiping God and praising him.
There are plenty of opportunities in our church that go unfilled that give people the opportunity to reach the lost. We cant sit back and wait. Be aggressive and take the step yourselves.
By the way "TW", I love you man! I knew which posts were yours without even looking for the "TW" at the bottom.
Now back on the subject that the post was to be about ( isnt it funny how blogs just take on the life of thier own?)
The CoC's view of divorice has always been a tough one for me. Not growing up in a CoC this is rather new to me. I have called it the "unpardonable sin" before. It seems if we are literal in this, we could have an individual who was a murderer be an elder but not someone that is a divoricee as long as the murderer had repented. Seems hard to equalize that. Here is a good one for you. We were married by a minister who had been divoriced and remarried !!! Hmmmm
Jackie; great to have you on board, and dont worry about spelling. I cant spell either.
Donna; i always love your wisdom
TW; well.....
Gino: Love you to brother and I will keep you in my prayers
RR
The "M" is for Marie; my mother and grandmother also had Marie as a middle name. And, I don't have any intellectual advantage. I just waste a lot of time reading when I should be doing laundry! :)
Also, I don't have a problem with anonymity for posing questions or venturing opinions, per se, only for attacking others directly. I agree w/some of the previous bloggers that this blog isn't the place to criticize Allen (I frequently do that by email or to his face. I can literally see his heart sink when he sees me walking up to him! :) ) but, jumping all over Gino and suggesting he leave is wrong. I think that's abusing the option of anonymity. I suggest that, before any of us posts a comment or criticism, we imagine Jesus is sitting next to us. Because, in a very real sense, he is.
Donna
Interesting opinions going on this week, I looked at the date just to make it is 2007 not 1963 in Miss. or Lou. Just kidding, what did come to mind though was that in the Bible back in the day, when God needed to get his peoples attention it wasn't unusual for him to raise up a person, usually an uneducated but sincere person who was different from them, probably had been living in the desert by himself for a long time, long hair, scruffy beard, you know what I mean, The star of the show this week doesn't necessrarly meet all the qualifications, but anyway God sent these guys into His peoples midst and stirred them up(pick a situation I don't care) anyway most of the time the people first got upset and rightous that this upstart would dare enter there midst and offer his opinion... maybe Gods message? I don't know wasn't there, but I've read about it,so have you,the people would speak of things like who's think he is coming in here telling us what so and so, or he's a man straight out of the desert, or what do fishermen know about having church, or it's that carpenter's kid running his mouth again... the downside and reward for these guys is a lot of the times they were drug through the streets behind horses at full gallop, or their heads rolled off some block, some were even crucified. But not nowadays they get ripped verbally. Maybe here's some lessons to be learned all over again. Sounds like we might be need'n a Prayer meeting. Before we pull out our daggers maybe we need to look in the mirror and ask the Lord what's in this for me? Where am I at in this Lord, what can I learn here Lord. I don't know it's just my opinion not necessarally right or wrong but it's mine for now, I love our church, our church family, our present and future leaders in our church, boy do they have a job, I do pray for them. Thank You, My Name is Charles Anderson aka BIGG DADDY
There is a reason people are not signing there name to the blog. A lot of us would like to voice our opinion but do not feel safe to do so. For SOME of us who have not signed our names but are simply sharing our thoughts, are not bashing Gino but defending our church family. As a church member, what are we to do when someone comes into our church and rips on multiple people in our church. I almost feel like he is trying to divide us. I don't believe bashing him and bringing him down is the answer but shouldn't we stand up for each other when he tries to bring us down??? I think this problem is bigger than anyone is willing to recognize. What does Gino think about all of this?
I am not sure what I did, except to know that I twice posted on the wrong blog. The following two were posted by me earlier on last week's blog. Oh well.
Here is the description of the blog:
Listen for God as we enter into communal conversations based on random thoughts AND as we reflect on biblical texts that will be/are preached in the Mitchell Church of Christ.
Worship assemblies provide a meeting, a special meeting between you, me, and God. There is a vertical and horizontal aspect to it. We express praise and adoration to God (See Revelation 4 & 5 as a model of heavenly worship). He invites us to his table to commune, providing a foretaste of the future Messianic Banquet and a reminder of the Exodus from Egypt and from sin (Jesus the Passover Lamb has been slain). And it seems to me, and the Bible is not super clear on what early worship assemblies were like, that teaching and instruction from Scriptures were an integral part. I work pretty hard on that piece, but it doesn’t always satisfy. I try to be faithful to what the text says, striving to please God. This is related to the horizontal aspect of encouragement and edification. Read 1 Corinthians 14 for some insight into that. We are to use our gifts to building each other up in the context of the assembly. Unbelievers are welcome at worship assemblies, and I think they can be taught there. But I agree with Donna that our worship assemblies are primarily about being baptized people who participate in the life of God. We leave to live for the sake of others.
As to the comment about wanting action. Come help, please. I really do have a hard time getting everything done that I want/need to do.
I love all of you.
I still think anonymity is fine, BUT some of the harsh words are not. I can handle the criticism directed at me (don’t enjoy it), but I don’t like some of the things said about Gino not being welcome, etc. I think it is fair to rebuke Gino in a loving way, but suggesting he go elsewhere doesn’t seem too Christ-like to me. Gino is welcome, as is everyone else. If he gets out of line, then the community corrects him. I think that’s what’s happening in this blog. I can’t say that I feel great about the blog this week (fighting discouragement, I think), but I think it is probably pretty healthy to have these “open” conversations. No one is perfect; only by the grace and mercy of God will any of us be saved. We are called to give what we have received, even when it is not earned or deserved. We certainly don’t earn or deserve it from God.
FOR LEXOPHILES (LOVERS OF WORDS):
A bicycle can't stand alone; it is two tired.
A will is a dead giveaway.
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.
If you don't pay your exorcist you can get repossessed.
A grenade fell onto a kitchen floor in France resulted in Linoleum Blownapart.
The short fortuneteller who escaped from prison: a small medium at large.
Hello to all, I have missed you. I took a break from the computer for a while. It was hard but sometimes I think it is good and frees you up to do other things.
Have you ever gone on a stay home vacation and kind of ruined it by saying I have four days left, three etc? Well this time I didn't do it, until today. This is my last day and I didn't resist the temptation to get on the computer, read the blog and recognize this is my last day. It has been a wonderful time off for me and I have really enjoyed my granddaughter.
In studying the text this week, I found something that applies in a way to all that has been going on in the blog this week. I was puzzling over Acts 20:26 which says...Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. I wasn't sure what this meant so when I referenced it I found
Ezekiel 3:17-19
17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
So we are to hold each other accountable and try to help someone when they sway from what is right. It looks like this applies to several this week.
Sometimes when someone says something that is offensive it spurs others to say things they wish they would have left unsaid. I think this is the case here. I don't think our church family is negative, but we are human and all need forgiveness for what we say and do.
As always I enjoyed reading Ryan, Diane, Terry Wayne and Donna's posts, what would we do without these wonderful people?
I haven't read all the booklet about the deacons and elders so I can't comment on that subject. I just know that we have been blessed with wonderful leaders in the past and I believe we will have more in the future.
Annette
Also, welcome to the Andersons joining the blog, I liked your comments. Join in more often now.
Annette
I too, have much of the same opinions as some of the other bloggers.(both positive and negative) I read the blog often but have never posted. I guess what brought me to this today is the concern I have for the COC reputation. I know that if I were a new member or just someone stopping by to visit I would be very discouraged by what I was seeing. Do you think that this is really the way that things should be handled? I am sure that this will make some uneasy about expressing their opinions in the future for fear of being attacked by their brothers and sisters in Christ. I am by no means taking Gino's side because I feel if he had a problem with Allen's work he should have went directly to Allen and not to a public forum, just as I feel if someone has a problem with Gino they should speak to him face to face. Much of our focus lately has been on service to others and building the church community. Please think about what the effect of our words will have on building the church. I think we should offer an apology to anyone who has been offended by all of this. Just know that this is not who we as a church really are and give yourself a chance to get to know us.
Carla Taylor
Allen, I'm not sure about letting the community correct its members. I think that's where divisiveness takes hold. If members of the congregation really feel someone's causing problems in the church, they should speak to the elders and let discipline and correction come from them.
Donna
Donna, I think I am witnessing community correction right before my eyes. Rebuke and correction are not channeled through the leadership of the church. It may rise to that level but not initially. Jesus is pretty clear about it. Matthew 5:23, 24, along with 18:15-17 are fairly instructive in this matter. I think there are several examples, but those two teachings come to mind quickly.
Leadership cannot announce unity and expect that it will happen or be maintained. It has to be maintained at level where people live. Ephesians 4 is especially helpful in demonstrating how WE overcome division and find unity. Verse 15 talks about “speaking the truth in love” as being key to spiritual maturity.
Allen, I'm no Bible scholar, but I don't think the verses from Matt. 5 fit this scenario at all. And, the verses from ch. 18 say that you take your brother aside and speak to him alone. Only if he continues in sin do you make it a group "intervention." I think it's awfully hard for most of us to correct someone w/o dragging personalities into it. That's why I suggest that it's better to speak to the elders if someone's really causing problems.
Donna
Here are a couple of passages that have been put in my heart this morning. I hope you will join me in reading them carefully. They seem related to our text and to what has happened on the blog this week.
1 Thessalonians 5:12-24
Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.
Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.
Micah 6:8
He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.
WOW!!!! I take one day off from the computer and it takes me an hour to catch up on the blog. As you are all aware I do feel very strongly about signing your name to your post, even more so when you want to be critical of others, but I do understand why some would be fearful too. (I will always sign my name because I am to dumb to be afraid!! :o)) I do agree with Carla's post and I think we should get back to our text this week.............poor Lester is probably having a stroke! :o)
Who wants to talk about qualifications for our church leaders? I have studied the text and TW read the booklet to me (gotta love tw!) but I still feel like I don't understand everything. One of my biggest concerns seems to be the interpretation of the scripture from one translation to the other. I would love some "explanation for dummies" on the subject please.
Diane
hey allen
last time you start a blog by saying how boring it has been lately
rr
I am an outsider looking in. I have visited your church a few times as well as some other local churches. I have been trying to change my life for the better and I really get a lot out of reading your blog. In fact I have been reading it for quite a few months now. I feel close to some of you who post although you are only a name as far as I know. I have been actively praying and working my way to becoming a part of your church because you present yourselves in such a loving manner. Do not think the blog this week makes anyone think any less of you. Since I have been reading the blog and have read the posts of Gino I think you usually ignore what he says or Allen will respond. Turning the other cheek is good but Gino doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes so he shouldn't get upset when someone gets frustrated with him. It looks like to me Gino is causing others to sin because he won't control his words. When others call Gino on his words he doesn't respond to it, but continues to blog like nothing happened. Gino I would like to ask you why you say things the way you do and are not careful of others feeling? Maybe you are a beginner like me and I in no way intend this to be a bash on you, just an honest question.
Signed Newby
Newby, thank you for your imput. I am glad that our poor behavior isn't turning you off to MCOC. This really is a church of very loving people many of whom understand your struggles and would love to help you in any way you need. I will say a special prayer for you. God bless you!
Diane S.
OK, I finally changed the picture. I bet you won’t like this one either! Ha ha. We don’t have much to work with here, folks.
Just finished up Sunday’s sermon. Of course I will go back through it a few more times to tweak it a bit. Sometimes I wonder why I spend so much time on them, but I believe that is what God wants me to do.
I have been thinking a lot about what has happened here this week. I have had a few “off-blog” emails and conversations in addition to what is expressed for all to see.
Here are emotions I have felt: anger, pity, pain, sorrow, frustration, disappointment, discouragement, confusion, encouragement, joy, peace, and love. There are probably others that I can’t think of right now. Words sting and words hurt; words build up and bring life. Words matter and matter a lot. There have been many words “spoken” here this week. Some should have chosen more carefully their words.
Here is the mistake I made: I should have removed the hateful anonymous posts and will strive to do so in the future. I apologize to Gino for letting those be seen by all. Gino, I love you, and I think all but a few do too. May God forgive those who don’t.
I really think God is in all this, trying to redeem it. I have seen some very redemptive things and feel encouraged by them.
Newby, you encouraged me greatly. Thank you!
If I ever start the week by saying, “the blog is kinda boring,” just come and get me and beat me up.
RE: THE PICTURE
Number one: that picture doesn't even LOOK like you.
Number two: thank goodness that picture doesn't look like you!
Number three: Perhaps you should have a photo taken professionally. Or, alternatively, a nice picture came with my wallet...
Donna
Oh Donna you are so funny!!!
I think I liked the other picture better. But don't worry about it Allen, I think your essence is just so rich that a camera can't capture it.
Annette
Well, you see, I’ve been looking at the kids’ My Space sites. It seems goofy, distorted pictures are all the rage, so me, being ever the cutting-edge guy that I am, went for that look. Plus this computer has a camera built in. I’ll spare you the pre-six a.m. picture.
Donna, you may read a lot, but Annette has a great gift of discernment and insight.
man! I almost spilt my Starbucks when the website popped up and I saw that picture! Eechhhhhh! Some how though I knew you were that cutting edge type of guy. ha
Although, I think the blog went off on its own life this week, I too think there are some good things that came out of it. Jackie and Charlie chymed in and had some great insight and wisdom. What a great joy to see the blog by "Newby". From a shepard's perspective, that is great to know that it appears the efforts and work is creating some fruit.
In all honesty, when I first read Gino's post, I thought he was being funny. Not until there were some post later did I even think he was serious.
I look at it this way, Gino is not perfect, no one on this sight is perfect. None of us are 100% "Christ-like". That is our goal and part of the journey is to become more like Christ. Along the way we stumble, fall and scrape our knees, some more than others.
I also think that disagreement and sometimes bad behaviour is good because it causes us all to do some self reflection. For example, ( this is totally hypothetical and i am not pointing finger or accusing anyone) it could be that someone who blasted back at Gino did not even realize that they had an issue with controlling their tongue or such. But by Gino touching a nerve and them putting their thoughts out there, they realized this is an area God needs to help them with. Just a thought but I think there always is some good in the bad.
Looking forward to Sunday. First time in a while I have been able to be there.
Have a great day all
RR
Allen, I think your picture is fun!! Now tell me how to get back on the real subject this week?!?! Where is Lester when you need him??
Diane
The picture is fun, because I am fun. In fact, dictionary publishers are negotiating with me presently about putting this very picture next to the word FUN.
I stand to become a very rich man.
Back on track? Hmmm. Well, I think Sunday's sermon is what it is going to take.
How 'bout a little excerpt? I know you are begging for it, so here goes:
Shepherds are elders and overseers with authority. But it is authority better derived from service and example than from title or position.
Did that just about knock your socks off?
Where is Lester? Dealing drugs in the Bedford CVS.
Good thoughts, Ryan. You describe what I call "God's redemptive activity." Good comes from bad, even our own bad behavior, if we turn toward God.
Should we sin that grace abounds? God forbid. Oh sorry, started quoting Paul (Romans 6).
Yes, it has been great seeing new names this week.
I like the excerpt from the sermon. That is what I was saying to begin with about the work done in the church. I notice,(and am guilty of not being part of)that most of the work is done by a small group of people. They do the work and don't complain. They are our true leaders.
Diane
Allen, first I almost could'nt believe rr just wrote 3 lines the other day, but I got over it pretty quik, he's a cool guy for an Irishman. Yeah, family some of us are Players, like Todd, T.Dubb, Rob R. R.R., Taffy, Bigg MC, Gstr, you want in you gotta suit up. this just means we like to kid and rib each other, keeps us grounded, so we don't take ourselves too seriously, by the way, where you at Gino? I'm hop'n an pray'n the Amish didn't read the blog and decided to do the full gallop thing... actually I'm just kidd'n, seriously, I have to be carefull cause sometimes what I write here doesn't come across as kidd'n like it does face to face, but seriously sometimes it's good for me to get my feathers ruffled by what someone say's to me, it gives me a chance to reflect on where I'm at in certain areas in life,(i can do this while i'm wait'n for the individual to regain consiousness) just kidd'n, but who knows maybe that person may have been sent to me by... never mind I think it's been a good week for the whole Church Family, this is where we're at right now for better or worse, diveristy can be a beautiful thing, helps us grow and become stronger if dealt with in a positive environnment. Takes a lot of prayer obviously and submission to the Lord and recognize that he's in control, that's why we're all a little upset, we felt a little out of control some one felt a little different about something and mentioned it out loud. Our Minister does an excellent job, I think, all of our leadership does an excellent job, I couldn't do it, remember I'm a player, I'd say something like get over it. Maybe I'm just not there yet. Besides my coffee cup is empty, got to go. with Love have a good weekend
As I was leaving my dept at work this morning I looked up and there was Teresa Sloan looking so cute in her nurses uniform with the cute little tum tum. Don't you think pregnant women are beautiful?
I must say it feels like old times with the dialog in the blog this morning. I really love you guys (and gals).
I have to work day shift on sunday so I will miss another service. I don't like missing so many but my heart is there if not my body.
Have a wonderful blessed day everyone, its off to bed for me.
Annette
Wow! I haven't been able to check the blog for a few weeks due to my workload.
I have to admit. Just reading through it from start to finish. I was sent through multiple emotions. I wanted to "protect" Allen. I wanted to be angry with Gino. I really enjoyed what Charlie said and I like his approach. I then wanted to forgive Gino and try to put myself in his shoes. I think if a lot of you knew his full story, you would understand that he truly is always thirsting for God and striving to be a strong Christian and bring as many with him as he can. Yeah, maybe in today's PC society we would like him to sugar coat his thoughts. Though I don't neccessarily agree with his opinions sometimes, It's not my place to condemn him for the way he feels. He reminds me a little bit of Paul. Rough past, probably always under scrutiny by others and having a fire for God on the inside that's just dying to get out. He's going to tell you what he's thinking whether you like it or not. Allen's tough, he can take it. Not that it doesn't hurt him, but he always responds with love.
Some of it may be cultural too. Gino's lived in a lot of places and not everybody everywhere voices their opinions the way we do in laid back southern Indiana.
Allen, I wasn't there last weekend, but I know where your going on your lesson plans. Keep it up. I've never worked with a preacher that was so dedicated to the flock as you are (even though you only work that one hour a week :P )
I think we're getting ready to go through more big changes within our family. I don't know what God has in store for us, but as long as we pay attention and follow his oportunities to serve and keep focussed on him. We will be successful.
My $.02.
Brent
bigg daddy, i only wrote three lines because after your two novels, i wasn't sure the blog could handle that many words! :)
i do thing brent and charlie both touch on topic we often over look. that being diversity. i love living here as i have all my life but we have to face reality that we are not like everyone else and we dont have the world cornered on reality and such. sometimes we only see things from the perspective of our comfort zone which is the tidy little corner of the earth we call mitchell, indiana. there is a whole big world there that is a whole lot different. remember; "not right, not wrong, just different"
Gino man, wake up from your beauty sleep! give us some dialogue.
this week's blog could almost be a whole chapter in your book! surely you have a betsy story for us (isnt that the name of your car?)
bigg daddy, i have about 3.5 hours in now, decided i am going home. that is a lot of work for govt employee on friday. ;)
RR
Once upon a time there was a gruff speaking brother, who hurt his siblings feelings all the time. After years of this behavior the norm was to say "oh never mind what he says thats just how he is" and so it went on and on and never changed. Everyone made excuses for him and allowed him to go on crossing the line.
True story. Happened in my family.
If we give one person license to break the rules and cross the lines then the behavior will continue and never stop.
I guess I would have to be convinced that he crossed the line and/or broke the rules.
When we choose to refuse to see other peoples points of view or stifle them from speaking, we cease to be effective listeners. Don't mis-read me. I may not agree with Gino said, but he has the right to say it. I have the right to disagree. I don't have the right to condemn him for his thoughts. I can work with him to help him see my point of view in a loving manner like Jesus would have.
That's really all I have to say about that. If I knew who you were, I would discuss with you personally, but since you refuse to identify yourself, your's not opening yourself up for discussion anyway.
It's really a shame that the blog has went this way this week. Being a Deacon, I would have liked to see everyone's ideas and thoughts on all of the Deacon and Elder requirements. I know that I've been praying about our selection process and I hope everyone else is too.
Brent
Amen to you Brent! I would love to be able to have some discussions about that process (I have been trying to all week!). I think we really need to take this seriously and choose who God wants us to to lead our church. If we don't do this then we will have leaders that lead the wrong way. Come on people.........lets talk about something that will help us get to heaven!
Diane
Well, according to Veggie Tales (chockful of wisdom, trust me) if you want to discern who would make a good leader, you gotta check his sock drawer. Tidy is good; untidy is...well. You know.
Back to Annette and how beautiful pregnant women are: Where were you when I was so hugely pregnant that Todd was threatening to buy my next dress from Louisville Tent and Awning?!:) My bellybutton popped out like a TURKEYTIMER and NOBODY TOLD ME that was normal! I'm on the phone to the doctor, who literally laughs in my face! Very traumatizing. Teresa is always so graceful and pretty when she's pregnant. I looked like a bloated carcass just waiting for the buzzards to show up! :)
Donna
Sorry, Diane; your request for serious didn't show up till after I'd been silly.
Honestly, tho, how much clearer guidelines do we need than the outlines in scripture? I think we all know the type of individuals we need, it's finding them and convincing them to take on the task that is the challenge.
Donna
Who crossed the line? A guy said he's hungry, we told him he wasn't. Settled that issue, but seriously, I agree I don't think I or anyone else has the right to run rough shod over any one. One needs to use tack and courtesy when dealing others. Brent sorry I forgot to list you as a player, you too Donna. I'm thankful I'm not on the selection list, just look what they to work with. I got knocked out once. Ooops my mug's empty again.
I think part of the difficulty I am having is that I don't know everyone to know what is in their heart. I have some ideas but really haven't seen alot of men in action there so I would like to hear some imput from those of you who have.
Diane
P.S.Teresa is always beautiful and graceful, pregnant or not! And yes, I looked like a beached whale too!! :o)
I have not bloged for a while; I must admit I have been consumed with work; changing jobs and other matters I am dealing with. This weeks blog when I looked at early on Monday was not much. Then when I came to church on Wednesday night I found that it had taken on a life of it's own. So Thursday morning I read it start to finish. I felt many emotions as many have already said. I have to say; at first read if I did not somewhat understand Gino's back ground I would have been upset. I have spent the last 19 years of my life in manufacture and have came across many different people. The openness and frankness of Gino's words all though maybe not what we would like to hear were very refreshing to hear someone say them. To lay it out there was cool to see; we don't see that much any more; people tend to be so concerned with being politically correct. Say what is on your mind and go with it. BigDaddy it was great to read what you had to say (I don't think you got knocked out of the spirit while writing). When I read what RR is thinking I grow to love him more and more everyday (even with knowing him all his life) I am proud to not only call him my brother but my brother in Christ. TW you and Brent have taught me more than you will ever know. Gino I hope and pray that we will see you on Sunday and none of this has hurt you; becuase I truely believe you ment not to hurt anyone of us. Allen I am still not sure about the picture yet.
Robin
concerning deacons and elders: the most important things to me are 1: full of the holy spirit. 2: full of wisdom. i am hoping that anyone willing to consider putting in a name of someone for consideration thinks about not only these, but thinks real hard about these. it is also important to ME that these people show the ability to lead. even in a deacon i want people who i desire to be like/learn from-what better way to get others interested in working for the church? this is not meant to step on current deacons toes as i believe that they possess these qualities. tw
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