Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything. A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
It would be helpful to read, along with this passage, Acts 6:1-7, which many believe to a description of the original deacons, even though they are not called that.
Some Questions:
- As you read this what are the first things that come to your mind?
- What in this text strikes you as remarkable?
- How many "qualifications" does Paul mention for one to be a deacon?
- Why are these things important to God?
- Which of these is the most difficult?
- How does these things differ from what Paul describes for elders?
- Do you know of men who like what Paul describes? Who are they?
What else is on your mind this week?
52 comments:
So, how’s it going? I had a nap a little while ago; it is a great afternoon for such a thing. I used to never take naps, but now it seems that I can hardly keep from taking one on Sundays. I wonder if its psychological, or is it that I eat too much for lunch?
I enjoyed my experience at the Christian Scholars’ Conference. My audience had open mouths and were drooling as I spoke. No, they were not interested in what I said; they were asleep! Just kidding. It went very well, and my work was well received, which is encouraging.
What are the opinions about eligibility for eldership if a man has been unfaithful at some point in his marriage?
Two things that strike me when i read this and i really dont know why they do are; 1) much wine and 2)wives worthy of respect. It is very interesting that this passage seems to place a very high importance on the wife in this position of being a deacon. That is interesting as some would say the CoC has stiffled the women's position in the church yet to be a deacon one of the qualification clearly is more about the wife than the man. The second issue about "much wine". I dont know why that strikes me odd but it does and it doesnt say not to drink but seems to say they shouldnt commonly get drunk. Probably a cultural thing.
RR
Yeah right, whatever RR
We ARE being stifled! STIFLED!STIFLED! STIFLED! :)
Donna
Stifled? We let you talk. What’s the problem? [I ducked even though no one is around.]
Boy, Ryan, talk about boring! You broach gender roles and alcohol consumption by Christians. What could possibly be said about these clear cut issues?
Drunkenness is always wrong
This I know
The Bible tells me so
What do you think the community called the Mitchell Church of Christ thinks of alcohol consumption among its leaders (ministers, elders, and deacons)? [I am an idiot for raising this, probably.]
Regarding the unfaithfulness post: I think we would need to more, really.
Is this a trick question? ha ha
Is the covenant still intact? Was he forgiven by his wife; peace and harmony restored?
Does the community know? What do they think? Is he blameless and above reproach?
But, doesn't unfaithfulness break the covenant? If we can't allow men who were "innocent" parties of divorce to be elders, I don't think it's quite right to let unfaithfulness slide, whether his wife forgives him or not. Adultery isn't an unforgivable sin, and I'm not pointing a judgmental finger, but it seems to me that letting a forgiven adulterer be an elder and refusing a divorced man for that position is legalistic. It's like he's being kept out of that office on a technicality.
Donna
Donna and all,
I have my doubts that such a person would be “in,”and I think it is probably time to put this horse in the ground. It has been a very good discussion over the last couple of weeks, and I really appreciate it.
I am getting excited about new leaders. I really don’t know what is going to happen, but I have a dream. I would love to see a diverse group of guys step up and say, “We’re ready, and we will work together to serve the Lord and this body.” I hope to see some fresh, even surprising, faces with new energy and ideas that will stimulate thoughts, ideas, creativity in all of us. I want to see an inspired body wake up from a comfortable nap and get out and engage the world with a view of bringing people to Christ. We have so much potential, and we have so many opportunities right in front of us.
There are some interesting phrases in our passage this week:
They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.
Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
What do you make of those?
What's your dream for the Mitchell Church of Christ? What do you want to see?
Did you see THIS?
A Japanese man who set a world record by wolfing down 53 hot dogs in 12 minutes has suffered a severe jaw injury due to his rigorous training, making his next title uncertain.
Takeru 'Tsunami' said he can only open his mouth to make a gap the size of a fingertip after being diagnosed with jaw arthritis.
Who knew there was “rigorous training” in hot dog eating?
RR, I was gently lined out last night by Lil Momma, she let me know with love that my jab at humor with you might misunderstood by some that I was insulting you. I apologise and beg forgiveness if I hurt your feelings. But I could'nt help but notice the ripping you received from our beloved Sister Donna...hehehe
Life is good when you have security based on a benevolent Sargent at Arms. Thanks Bigg Daddy, for just being you. We love you.
BD, did you tell her about me "leading you into temptation" last week? I probably had the ribbing coming.
Donna, i did expect you comment on my post.
Allen, i did see that about the hot dog athlete. Almost as amazing as a pair of pants worth $54M. Wow! I bet he didnt buy those a the Regen store.
This whole process of leadership selection has been fascinating to me. ( ok, i know I am a geek). I have enjoyed people's thoughts and ideas and how each person approaches it a little different. The encouraging part to me is that it is obvious that a lot of people are taking it serious and giving it a lot of thought.
Not sure that I have ever really sat down and defined a dream for me for MCoC. Interesting idea.
RR
It just hit me! Blogs remind me of the old days of CB radio. Breaker, breaker, hey good buddy, listen to this...
You know what my “handle” was?
Chicken Lips.
I don’t really know.
Big Daddy; RR should get what ever you can throw at him. I am like RR, I have found this whole process very interesting. This is only the third time that I have seen it done and this is the most thoughtful process yet. I also found it interesting about the mention of the wife in the reading. I have found it to be a little out of place; meaning I have always thought it should have been in the qualifications for an elder possibly more than a deacon. Yet then again I did not write this; so what do I know. The drinking part; what ever !!! Hope to see you all on Wednesday. Robin
I to have been excited and entrigued by the whole selection process this time. Over the years, I've experienced the process many times. When I was a kid, I always visualized it as this secret, closed door, decision making process that only the elders and deacons participated in. They might take names from the mambers, but I never felt like it mattered. I would say a lot of people experienced that.
I haven't looked at it that way for a long time, but I will admit, this time we've gotten everyone more involved. I think Allen's class and this blog have been a big contributor to that.
I agree with Allen about wanting a more diverse group leading the congregation. I'm the youngest member of the elder/deacon group (and I'm almost 40). I can see where my outlook and views are different than guys just 10 years younger than me. We can't be effective in leadership, if we don't reflect a good cross section of ages, personalities, backgrounds, etc...
I have spoken to Allen about this, and I truly believe, that we are getting ready for another big change/surge within our church family. I just haven't figured out what will be the driver. While we've been here, it has been the FLC, FLLC, Parking Lot, the food pantry, pre-school, etc... Before we came there was a growth when Allen came.
Maybe somebody new is going to start attending that will re-light a fire somewhere, maybe we'll have a situation that really tries our faith, maybe we'll have an opportunity for another building project, I don't know. God will present us with something. I just sense something.
Maybe it's just my finger throbbing again. (I guess I'll finally get it X-rayed today, it's only been a week since it happened :] )
Gotta get back to work.
Brent
Brent, you are disappointing me. The manly thing to do is to wait until it becomes unbearable and the finger unrecognizable as a human digit.
Seriously:
You are one of the best, in my mind. I love your thoughts, your work ethic, your simple approach. We need more like you, and, of course, more not like you. ha ha. Diversity dude, diversity.
The concept of Gestalt comes into play here: the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I am anticipating some wonderful synergy.
About the wife: As the old saying goes, "behind every good man is a good woman". If it weren't for some good women out there, I'm sure there would probably be a few more lost men. (and I ain't talkin' about askin' for directions).
Tony
AMEN TONY!!
Brent
I was doing some work on a future project and came across the following. I wrote this a few years ago for a different context, but I am struck by how relevant it is to The Process of identifying leaders. We are looking for men who enflesh the word and live it out. Is this the meaning of “holding the deep truths”?
Luke Timothy Johnson (Scripture and Discernment, 52) makes a good point in defining theology, “first of all as a reading the texts of human lives in a continuing process of self-revelation by the Living God, rather than as first of all a reading of the texts of Scripture as a record of a past and finished revelation.” While I don’t agree with everything Johnson says or all of his conclusions, he does make a great point about the importance of seeing God’s dealings in the past as a way of understanding our present and guiding our future.
He emphasizes that a community of faith does not make decisions simply based on good management policies, market trends, polling data, etc. Rather decisions are made in response to God’s activities in the world. We examine the stories in Scripture to see how God dealt with his people and how his people dealt with him and with each other. From those stories we get a sense of how God works in the human community, then and now.
While I would likely disagree with Copenhaver (Good News in Exile, 36) and the others about their view of inspiration, I like the point they make. “. . . Scripture derives its authority not only from how the words got on the page, but also from how the words get off the page. That is, we believe that the best way to test the validity of the sayings of Jesus found in the Bible is to try live by them!” Amen!
I get to enjoy Tony's profundity all the time on long runs, and now you get a taste.
This is off subject but have any of you wondered why so many people keep killing their kids? The news has been full of it lately.
I don't agree but I can see someone taking their own life, or being so upset with their partner that they snap out on them but I cannot understand why they would kill their innocent children. Is it simple selfishness or what?
It is so disturbing to me.
Annette
I, too, have a dream for the future of McoC:
1)I dream that Allen will quit using words like "Gestalt" and "synergy." :)
And, this may not be popular, but--
2)I hope that we'll start spending as much time on Christian Ed. as we do fellowship/community. We spend an enormous amount of time trying to figure out how to get people in the doors, and then, how to keep them. That's important, but it's even more important to teach good theology and doctrine, and even Bible history. These are basic to wisdom and discernment-- things we really need in the world we live in now. Experiencing God is important. Thinking straight is important, too.
I also have a question: how do we reconcile diversity with being of one mind?
Donna
I believe the diversity that Allen and others are talking about are people that have come from different walks of life while yet have one common goal. The church Ryan and I grew up in everyone was either related or grew up and lived with in a 20 mile radius. It did not make for a very diversity was not a topic or opition. Robin
Oh Boy Donna, am I gonna have to get the horse out? See ya tonite maybe.hehehe
I agree with Donna about getting back to Christian Education. I really enjoy doing Bible lessons with my kids on Sunday mornings. I think sometimes that we feel like the Bible alone just won't hold people's interest enough.
You might be surprised how much the Pathfinders know about old testament history and the new testament church.
Sit down and start reading it. Outside of some of the dryer sections (Dueteronemy, Numbers, some of the prophets) it can't help but hold your interest.
Sometimes I think the Bible is just looked at as another point of reference instead of the source where all of the reference books come from. (Did that make sense, I think I hurt my head.)
By the way, the finger is broke. The nurse at the walk in clinic was less than sympathetic since I waited a week to get it looked at.
See ya tonight!
Brent
B.D., what is this horse of which you speak? Unlike others, I do not fear you, tho you are large and could easily crush me! I cast rocks and garbage in your general direction! :)
Donna
your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberry
Sounds like Monty Python to me.
Wow! What a day!
At 7 this morning I met Darrin C. and Matthew C. down at ReGeneration to bale our first bale of clothes. We did it! It took about an hour and 45 bags of clothes. The bales weighs around 1000 pounds, I think. The clothes we baled are clothes that we cannot sell. They are either dirty, torn, or just didn’t sell after a few weeks on the rack. We can sell them for about 15 cents a pound. We think this is really going to be a good source of revenue for Capstone Ministries. A local business person has been kind enough to lend us storage space until we get a semi load (32 bales). We had a forklift donated to us by Hoosier Uplands, but we need another one for the storage facility. The one we have didn’t have working brakes, so Darrin and I have been working on them. Today we got them fixed. Not bad for a couple of preachers who only work on Sunday!
Got some study in this afternoon. I have to present a couple of lectures at Lipscomb next week, so that is pushing me a little bit. Today I was able to figure out where I want to go with what I have to say. It’s really hard when you don’t know who your audience is.
My class this evening was interesting (again). (Again) we talked about divorce. This is such a tough thing to talk about. What I came away with is this: I need to re-emphasize God’s grace and redemptive activity in divorce. I think I have been clear and consistent about this, but I probably have not said it often enough. It especially needs to be said now, since we have talked so much about divorce in the last 3 weeks.
This process of discussing elders and deacons has been very rewarding and helpful for me and for others, according to what I am hearing and reading. The community has been working and learning together. It’s a beautiful thing.
On Sunday we will present sheets of paper that will allow you to “nominate” potential elders and deacons. Then the process will be about over. I will be gone on the 8th. (I am hoping Gary will agree to speak.) Then I will have one more sermon from Ephesians 4:11-16, discussing the role of the entire church in relationship to leadership.
This question has nothing to do with this weeks topic (sorry Lester) but I need to ask a question and I want to do it anonymously because I need info but don't want to tell everyone who I am right now. I know some blog participants can help me here so here goes:
If an EKG shows that you have had a heart attack, can it be possible for that to be one that you had 3 years ago or would it be new activity?
Anonymous, if you had a heart attack 3 yrs ago you should have an EKG from that time. If you have had another EKG now that says you have had a heart attack then your doctor or cardiologist should compare those two EKG's and give you that answer.
I called one of my co-workers (cardiac nurse) and asked her your question. She said an EKG machine will diagnose your rhythm, but they are not always right so it has to be confirmed by the cardiologist one way or the other. Old heart attacks show up a little differently than new ones. If your EKG technician told you what the EKG machine said, but your doctor hasn't told you the results, then that could be the problem.
I hope this helps.
Annette
Thanks Annette!
Sorry folks, I don't know why that duplicated so many times.
Annette
Nothing to do with the subject except this a blog.
Interesting factoid.
In May 2007, there were 71 million active blogs going on.
Wow!
RR
RR,
Is your job as boring as mine is today?? :o)
Diane
Annette, I hope I fixed your repeating problem! ha ha.
You guys act like we are heading into a holiday week next week.
I just got back from seeing a friend whose wife filed for divorce. He got the papers on his birthday.
Getting ready to go to the funeral home and then to ReGen to bale a few bales of clothes. I think Ben's baseball game is washed out.
Ron P. has successful surgery this morning. I love him and his family.
Have a good evening.
Ok 3 times is a charms, Todd, I had no idea what you had to go thru. My prayers are all about you bro. May I suggest 1 Tim. 2:8- rest of Chapt. Now on a serious note, I've found the last three weeks discussion most interesting concerning the selection of Deacons and Elders, granted it's cleary spelled out what our leadership is to look for in a man for these positions, the bottom line "Godlike", Hmmm, well that settles it with me, God is looking for a bride, He's made a covenant, He's not going back on His word, He's waited, He's established His principles and logic. He's coming back someday for a Church that's like Him, "Godlike", this is what our Leadership must look for in these positions. OK now I'm probably the most transparent man in our church family, I know where I stand on this issue, I also know from the word that I'm to praise God for all things and that means for where I'm at in this life right here, right now, at this moment in time. I know because the Bible tells me so, that if I humble myself and truly submit my will to His will, only then will doors be opened, and will I be lifted up, as in being a blessing to others. Any time that I have tried to operate out of the will of God it's been a total flop. I'm going somewhere with this so hang with me for a minute. I know that what our Minister has been teaching on the last few weeks is straight out of the word of God, I can't help but think that we've been presented with Holy Logic. I probably don't always understand God's Logic, but you know what? I don't have to. I only have to believe like a child that He knows what's best for me, all I have do is worship Him, and Praise his Name. Only then can I be a blessing to men who can meet these qualifications, and they are going to need our prayers,and suppport. They didn't get where they are by accident, they earned it, by diligent prayer and sacrifice, and submission to the will of God, this is their blessing to serve God and us. Then I can be a blessing to my Church and Community because our Church Humbled it self to be led by the word of God. I Love You Guys-Bigg Daddy
Wow Bigg Daddy, your new title of Sargent of Arms has really brought out a new side of prophetic profundity!
I was talking to another person about you today, and we agree. You have grown wonderfully and say some great things that are SO helpful to all of us. Thanks!
Keep talking; we're listening.
We love you deeply.
This is back to waht Brent and Donna were talking about in earlier posts....someone said something to me recently about all the new people who have come to our church. Many of them didn't grow up in the C of Christ so they could use a class for adults like a "What we believe" class. Southeast in Louisville offers these and it really helps adults learn things that we seem to only teach in the childrens classes nowadays.
Diane
who are the strange beings in the picture?? SCARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now that picture in a keeper. Allen, maybe you should have a gallery of new pictures that rotate every week or so...may draw a few more to the blog to see who is "up".
Kodak Guy
Kodak Guy,
Now I like that idea! How 'bout you bloggers send me pictures of yourself and maybe I could feature you for a day or two???? This could be lots of fun, you know.
I think featuring our Sargent at Arms and his woman is an excellent way to start.
so how does our leadership feel about a new deacon or elder who has had pre-marital sex? if we are going to exclude leaders for past sins where does that slippery slope end? i cussed once, am i disqualified??? tw
TW; first what are you doing up at 1204 blogging? Secondly most people would not know if someone had; participated in pre-marital sex unless they told you or they had a child from this activity. I believe we need to look for guidance at this weeks scripture; where it talks about being tested. I think this testing us for the person being considered for deacon or eldership at the time. I know at this point in my life I would not pass the test; but if it is God's will for me maybe 15 years down the road I can be tested and found worthy. God's grace is all foregiving and this is how we are to be. Robin
i was certainly not being so presumptious as to assume i need to worry about whether or not i qualify, also the cussing once comment was just me being totally absurd. after hearing some of the conversations which have taken place i am just curious as to which prior sins are truly disqualifiers if any are. and i am not sure that it much matters who knows about someones past sins and who doesn't (or how many people know). i think we need to be more concerned about if a man is full of the spirit and wisdom than concerned about what he was doing as an 18 year old. and if we are going to say that premarital sex, theft, greed, or having been in a fist fight is a disqualifier then the congregation and the people who may be asked to fill this role need to be notified of these pre-qualifiers. i really feel stupid saying all this because my point is that i think we can oh so easily get distracted about prior actions of a good and Godly man that people who qualify in Gods eyes will not only be disqualified in our eyes but discouraged. i am afraid of what the series of questions about 1. divorce 2. infidelity 3. premarital sex is leading to. maybe it is leading to a lot of legalism, i wonder how many of the cretans who became deacons/elders would fit our explanation-they were after all filthy rotten stinking liars right? and they were probably lying about their sex lives (i know that was unnecessary) tw
TW; you said everything I have been thinking but could not really put in to words that I liked. I agree totally. Robin
I don't know guys, the way I read 1 Tim 3:8-13 is that when the Leaders of a church have to look for a Deacon or an Elder they're to look for a Mature Man, not a kid fresh out of college or the service, or even a newly wed Man. These are to men worthy of respect, sincere not a heavy drinker or a crook. He takes the word of God to heart and holds the deep truths of faith with a clear conscience, like he knows wehere he stands in the word of God. He's going to be tested, it's not like some guy is going to walk in off the street and fill out an application for a Deacons position. the word also say's His wife must be worthy of respect cool and not a gossiper, and trustworthy in everything. He must be the husband of one wife and manage his children and household well. So if any of you guys know my past, then you know I failed gloriously in all of the qualifications listed above. I've had, I've been had, done it all, not bragging just saying that when I repented and allowed the Lord to take over then the negatives in my life were turned into positives. T Dub a couple years ago I smacked my thumb so hard with a 24 oz. hammer that all the men around me cussed... I just had to maintain consciousness.hehehe
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