Here’s our passage for the week:
Matthew 7:15-20
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
What’s your first impression of these words of Jesus?
It seems that Jesus is talking about two, related, things. First, the credibility of a prophet’s words is backed up by his actions. The false prophet’s walk does not match his talk. The other thing, which is a little broader, is that everyone can be "judged" by his or her "fruit."
Then there is the third part. Those who do not produce good fruit are not acceptable to God.
Questions:
What is the "fruit" that Jesus has in mind?
Can you give some examples of "false fruit" producers?
Is it true that what you do defines who you are?
Who are you, according to your "fruit"?
Sunday, March 18, 2007
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I had an email question this afternoon regarding this morning’s sermon, specifically about perfectionism. This morning I made reference, without citation, to Matthew 5:48.
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Here is what I wrote my friend:
I think this is the standard that we strive for, but clearly only a few of us make it. JUST KIDDING. No one makes it. We have to guard against two things, I think:
1. Arrogance that might come from doing better than the ones to whom you are comparing yourself.
2. Sloppiness/laziness that comes from an attitude that says, “Can’t do it, why even try?”
Without a lot of thought I think #1 is the way I used to be, based on a legalistic approach, and I fear #2 is the current mind-set of many in the church. What do you think? How do we get the right approach to this?
By the way, this is all related to this week’s passage about fruit. Isn’t it?
My Sunday Night Alive Marriage Matters class seems to be going well. I am enjoying it, and hopefully it is helpful. Last night we began a discussion about “affair-proofing” marriage. This is going to be a powerful segment. If you want read a real, raw description of an affair, click HERE. A few warnings first, however. There are a few words that could offend some. I did not read all the comments others made, because the story is pretty long, even without the comments. The blog is written by a guy who lost his faith but seems to be trying to get it back. It is a compelling read, so be prepared to stay there for a little while.
In the plant world and with technology, alterations in plants create something that appears more appealing, might taste better, have fewer seeds etc., but if you save the seeds or cuttings and replant them next year eventually the original plant comes back to what the true plant was to start with. Squash is one example. It's what's inside that counts, I guess. There is an old saying 'call them like you see them'. What we put inside is what we become. We can put on a front but when faced with crisis or temptation what is inside will come out in our actions. Thankfully we have been grafted in to His kingdom and his grace covers our sins and imperfections but we cannot let the seed within us go back to the wild unusable weed we may have started out as. We need to tend the garden of our hearts and pull the weeds of sin and idleness, untwine the invasive vines of bad habits, fertilize the soil with His word and prayer and when fruit is produced it will be useful and serve a purpose in His kingdom for others and to enrich the lives of not only ourselves but our family and friends and people we encounter along this walk. Weeds produce seeds that make more weeds but fruit produces seeds that produce more fruit. We just have to tend to the tree to bring out the best and listen to the Master Gardener of our souls for help.
Can you tell I am ready to dig in the dirt. Our tulips are up at the building and it's time to tend the soil. Invasive mint has taken over. Hopefully I will get to that soon with the help of anyone who wants to assist. In early May I hope we can get together and have a perennial exchange and do more planting in the flower bed there. Have a wonderful day everyone.
In one of my Oakland City classes I have 10 students, all female. Last week we were talking about the importance of connecting with communities of God’s people. I asked them, “how many of you go to church at least once a week?” Only one answered in the affirmative A follow-up question about the frequency of church attendance found answers varying from “once a month” to “not at all.” All these women, who are in their 20s and 30s, believe in God and love him. They find that church is hard to make time for and some feel that they can be just as effective for God by reading and praying on their own. I encouraged them to think about the fact that God has always related to his people in community. It seems to be a priority for him. In a subsequent discussion we identified several very important reasons why community is important: encouragement, support, learning, correction, accountability, were among them.
Today two of the girls who rarely go to church came in and told me that they went on Sunday. Both attended the same large church in Bedford. One had a good experience, and the other had a terrible experience. The one who enjoyed it went with a friend who carefully took her around and “walked her through” getting the kids in the right place and finding a place to sit. The one who hated it went with a relative who seemed a little unfamiliar with childcare. The bad experience came when the nursery worker (and others) seemed aloof and uninterested in the mother or the child. I’ll spare you the details, but it was not good.
While we were talking about this, another girl related how she had not been to church since January and noone had called her. I asked her about her attendance patterns prior to her recent absence. She indicated that attended just about every assembly for 3-4 months. I ask her if it hurt her feelings that noone had called. She said, “yes.” Another girl who attends the large church mentioned above said that if she misses two weeks in a row someone will call and ask if she is ok. I asked her, “do you like that?” She said, “Yes, it lets me know that someone cares.”
There were other things said today, but I want to summarize a couple of thoughts/reactions. We have a lot of work to do reaching out to a rapidly increasing number of uninterested unchurched people. ALL of us, no matter who we are in the church, have the responsibility to be loving and careful with each other, especially visitors. So much is on the line. We need to make sure visitors know where to go and what to do. We also need to make calls to those who miss. Don’t wait for someone else to do it.
Part of the “fruit” we are after this week can simple be called “care” and “concern.” It takes us all to do it effectively, I think. What do you think?
I've been coming to the Mitchell c of C for 16 months now and I bet I could count on 1 hand the number of people who know my name. I hear so much talk about community, but unless you are in the "in" clique(s) I don't think it really matters. It also doesn't seem to matter how many different events I attend. People group together in their normal groups and I simply stand aside and observe. Of course I try to enter into conversations and am met with polite attentiveness, but I never really feel included. I often don't come to events because it is very painful to watch the script and have no one try to draw you in. No, I certainly don't need to be coddled, but it would be nice for the people who have been a part of the church for many years to take an active interest in those around them who they do not know. Churches in general have a weird social structure anyway, I think, and there is probably no easy answer to the problem. Perhaps I am the only one who feels this way? Perhaps not.
"anonymous",
Are you attending Sunday School? If not, I would love to have you join our class. We are primarily 20somethings (ok, so I can only claim that for a few more months...) and our group is small enough that it is impossible to go unnoticed! We meet upstairs in Gary & Matthew's office at 9:15 for breakfast, then class starts promptly at--well, it never starts promptly. But we have a good time and learn a lot and love the LORD. Come join us.
Jean Sowders
Not to compete with Jean (who will be a thirtysomething four days before I will), but we'd love to have you in our Sunday School class too, anonymous...and any other anonymous folks are welcome to come too. You won't be anonymous for long. We are late 20s to thirtysomethings to 40s, singles and marrieds. We are a small, spirited group. We meet upstairs in the back of the FLC. We are studying the book of John together. A few of the regular bloggers are in our class, so you might "know" some of them.
Also, I don't know if you're male or female, but I also attend Kedra's class for women on Wednesdays and I love it. It is multi-age and I learn so much from the women in that class.
As for the text...let me be master of the obvious here and say that this brings to my mind the discussion of fruit in Galatians 5. If the Spirit is living and active in your life, the Spirit's fruit will be evident...people will see your good works and praise your Father. If you are living in conflict with the Spirit, then your fruit is bad, rotten...sinful. No one likes rotten fruit. I don't, anyway.
Part of the time I am a good fruit girl...I can be loving and kind, joyful, gentle. But sometimes I am pretty sure I am a bad fruit girl too...I am at times selfish, proud, quick tempered, among other things. I realize that no one is perfect all of the time, but Jesus talks about this good vs. bad fruit thing as if it is a black or white, all or nothing issue.
I appreciate Anonymous’s post, which I believe to be very honest. We (MCOC) have a problem, and it is shared by every group, church, organization. We are aware of it, so the question for me is: What do we do? Anthony and the Connection Ministry are working specifically on this. We are looking at connecting new people (“visitors” who keep coming) with a family or two who will “adopt” them, making sure that they are never left out or alone. The goal is to move visitors into smaller groups of people where they can be known and appreciated. There are a lot details to work out in all this, but that’s the general idea. I think this will be a good step for us.
I do think Jean and Michelle are right in encouraging people to connect with classes. You have a much better chance of connection in that environment. I think all our classes–Sunday morning, Wednesday evening, and Sunday evening–provide really good opportunities to find a little more community. We need to take it further, however, and we are working toward that.
I believe, ultimately, it takes everyone stepping out of comfort zones to make it work. It’s scary, risky but worth it.
This week I am reading The Four Voices of Preaching by Robert Reid. It is very interesting so far. He breaks preaching styles into four categories or “voices”: Teaching, Encouraging, Sage, and Testifying. Here is a brief description of each (p.24-5):
1. In the Teaching Voice preachers seek to explain meaning by making an argument. The goal of this preaching is to have listeners affirm the sermonic interpretation of the text’s meaning for the community by saying, “Yes! This what we believe.” This is an argument-centered model of preaching.
2. In the Encouraging Voice preachers seek to facilitate an encounter with God/Spirit/grace/empowerment by advocating a perspective in a way that listeners will respond by saying, “Lord, may this be so in my life.” This is an advocacy-centered model of preaching.
3. In the Sage Voice preachers seek to invite listeners to explore possibilities of meaning by offering critical reflection or analysis with the intention that listeners would respond, “Whoa! What will I do with (or make of) that?” This is a journey-centered model of preaching.
4. In the Testifying Voice preachers seek to engage listeners in a formative conversation with their faith tradition, their culture, and their own identity as followers of Christ by articulating possible ways of building community together with others, so that listeners might respond, “Yes! This conversation matters. Let’s keep talking.” This is a formation-centered model of preaching.
So, I’m curious. Can you identify my dominant “voice” from this list above?
[This post will bore most (all?) of you; you may want to skip it. I’m just letting you know a little more about me and what’s going on...]
This week I am also trying to finish up Levinas: A Guide For The Perplexed. It is an attempt to explain the teachings of the French philosopher Emmanuel Levinas. It’s dense, or maybe I’m dense! I am still perplexed. At least it is not Levinas For Dummies! But, actually, if it was, then I might understand it. Oh well.
I am trying to read it because Levinas’s philosophy influenced John McClure who deeply influenced my work at ACU. I had to read so much so quickly back then (some Levinas and all of McClure, including, Other-Wise Preaching: A Postmodern Ethic for Homiletics). Now, as I work on putting my ACU work in book form, I am going back and exploring a little more with a little more time. The key idea, for me, that comes from Levinas and McClure is the importance of the “other.” This is why I want my preaching to be collaborative. I want to honor the ideas, thoughts, and experiences of “others.” We should always honor others who all uniquely reflect The Other (God).
Yeah, enough of that.
Allen:
My guess is your type of voice is #4, however, I think at times you cover all of the types or at least have on one subject or another.
I found the comments by "anonymous" very interesting. If I may ask, how often do you read this blog and join in? I am really curious. My point is that it would seem that although you may not feel you have been brought into the fold, you still must sense some form of "community" as you said you have been attending for 16 months and you also are reading this blog. Jean and Michelle, stepped up to invite. Good stuff. I though am very interested in the experiences and thoughts of how this fellow believer feels we could further develop our sense of community. It seems we always try to fix it from the inside instead of from the outside. What I mean by that it seems all the suggestions are from people already active in the fold. I can tell you what I feel or know that I have read but when we started coming to MCoC, it wasn't that hard for me because I grew up in Mitchell and knew so many, so hard for me to really give an objective view of this. Does that make sense? I think this is a problem as churches grow. It is hard on a normal sunday for me to tell you who all was there.
Yes there are clicks and small groups and people operate in their comfort zone.
Anonymous, please don't be offended by what I said or asked. This truly is a heart felt inquiry as to how can we meet the needs of those like you. MCoC has a lot to offer.
Michelle, how is the book?
RR
Regarding Michelle’s comment about fruit, allow me to quote that great Hoosier philosopher, Michael Jackson (or was it the Mormon philosopher Donny Osmond?), “One bad apple don’t spoil the whole bunch, girl.” Deep, very deep. Think about it.
I dunno, guys. I think our congregation may be more "nutty" than "fruity." :)
Donna
How's that old saying go?
God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts.
I love fruit and nuts, it's healthy stuff. In addressing the anomomous blogger, I can understand your feelings because I have had those feelings anywhere I have attended, and have in the last 30 years only attended two congregations. Part of it has been self-inflicted so at times I feel the way you do, I try to make a concerted effort to either have people over that I don't know and try to get to know them better and that helps me come out of my shell and I really have a problem with retreating. I grew up very shy and age and experience has brought me past most of that but inside I still am. I guess it is fear of rejection and we have all experienced that. I am careless and selfish about not greeting new people as I should and hope in no way that I have carelessly offended you or anyone else. I really appreciate your honesty and willingness to open up. Most of us hide it inside and let discouragement take over and that is what our enemy, Satan wants.The last thing I ever want to do is make someone uncomfortable and am sorry if I have in any way. There are those I have been close to from Central where many of us once attended who have known each other for thirty years or more and through that time we have shared many things, such as bringing up our children together, having meals together, going through various trials and grief in each of our lives, working togther in our congregations, and that has formed a strong bond which makes us gravitate to our comfort zone. Stepping out is not easy and I want to do a better job. I love all of you. Have a beautiful day. Sherron
I have to agree with anonymous. I have been attending for a few years and I still do not feel like I really belong. I used to come to Sunday school, Sun. AM and PM services, Wed Bible class, as well as other events, such as Ladies Night out, etc., thinking it would help me to get to know people better. Like anonymous, I would try to join the conversations, but I also felt I wasn't really included. I think a part of it is that I am not originally from here. I don't have that common background and shared past. I know it's easier for people to get to know each other when they have something in common. Part of it is me - I find it hard to initiate conversations with people I do not know well. I have finally decided that I'll just come, worship God and not really worry about being included.
Anonymous#2
I appreciate your honesty, A2. I really don’t know what to say but I am sorry. I think we all have to be more intentional including the different and those who come from different places. You are probably bumping up against a little of the Southern Indiana subculture, which is probably not much different from any other place. We all tend to flock with birds that have feathers like ours or least grew up in the same coop. I hope, when we establish true small groups, that you will give it one more try.
I would like suggest that all of us do something. Make it your goal to have a few people over to your house for a simple meal. Kedra and I have been doing this some lately. We invite 4-5 couples who represents different ages and interests to our house for some pizza and chips (or whatever). It really does not take much effort, and it is always interesting. We hope to continue to do this. I think others are doing this as well, but let’s expand it. Invite someone you are comfortable with first, and then include a couple or two that you don’t know too well. Our Sunday Night Alive start time at 5 provides you a great opportunity to have a few folks over after class. I think we are going to try that really soon.
Back to last week for a moment or two. Concerning the wide and narrow road:
Someone has said it well, that each way is like entering a funnel. You can enter at the wide end, but then the farther you go the more life closes down. It ends in destruction. Or you can enter a funnel at the narrow end, and the farther you go, the more it opens up into the joy of the reign of God. It ends in life.
Pretty good illustration, don’t you think?
Ryan Roberts loaned me his copy of Starving Jesus. To answer your question, RR, the book is wacky, and I really like it. Around page 7 I started getting really scared, because it is in-your-face and challenging. The message of chapter 2 is that we, the church, have become "Born Again Lazy." The authors challenge us, people who claim to be followers of Jesus, to actually get up off of our pews and couches and follow him, engaging the world. Really cool stuff. As I said, it is scaring me, but I am still reading. Thanks for the loan RR.
And Allen...wow. Osmond and Jackson. I don't know the song you're talking about, but I'll bet that the two of them singing it together would be even better than a solo by either.
Michelle:
Is that book not just like a hard smack across the face!!
I agree, it scared me because the logic you can't argue with. I felt so bad because I have used those same ideas, excuses and thoughts. Aghhhhh!!! Brutal honesty sometimes is what is needed.
I think the thread here is this post really falls in line with the "born again lazy". we come and fill a pew and only hang with those that are just as vanilla as us!
RR
I want to thank you for hearing when you read my blog (Anon #1). I actually read and respond on the blog quite often to answer RR. I have stuck with the Mit C of C because I think the C of C strives to be scripturally accurate and I also sense that Allen especially is interested in life far below the surface. I think with a spiritual leader who strives to hear God's voice and one who seeks His heart that you can't help but be deeply challenged in your relationship and obedience to God. I come and listen intently to the sermons because I truly do want to learn how to serve God with more understanding. I want to learn how to apply what God would have me do in a concrete way in my life. I struggle deeply with the American style of life and church. Do we really believe that we are only passing through? If so, why do we dedicate so much time and energy to gain more and more and more........ When I see the heartache and suffering in so many parts of the world I struggle with what we as the hands and feet of Christ should really be doing with our lives. And then there is the whole issue of community....it seems that the church should be such an easy place to be inclusive. We are, after all, clear on what the goal is. Having spent years in marketing, I am use to being the one who draws people in, but in church I am the outsider so perhaps that is another reason I feel so alone. And, no, Sherron, you haven't made me feel uncomfortable. Actually I don't have any idea who you are. Sorry. It's not individual people who I feel slighted by, it's the whole make up of the church social situation. It doesn't lend itself to drawing people in. I can't quite put my finger on it as to why. In a business situation when you come into a meeting there is a lot of personal interaction "hi, my name is and here come sit by me and what are your thoughts on this and how did you deal with these issues and wow I'm hungry, let's go grab some lunch etc...). You get the idea, but in church you just come in and someone greets you because it's their job that Sunday and you go find a seat and very often that is the end of it. Wow and these are the people I am going to spend eternity with. Shouldn't I know so much more about them then I know about a colleague. Shouldn't I feel the same depth of interest? Isn't being a believer our first vocation? One from which we will never retire? As far as exactly how to implement this, RR, I think we need more depth of warmth and sincerity in welcoming our visitors and those who come on a regular basis. If you don't know their name and what they do in life, you probably need to go introduce your self and pull them closer. When you look around the church on Sunday morning, do you know everybody's name? If you know everyone around you, move further out. There are so many people there. Not just a handshake and a quick "how are you", but maybe learn more about each person and "hey, can you go out to lunch with us?" I think if a group of dedicated believers begin to practice this on a consistent basis, the change in the dynamics of the church would be staggering. I know one Sunday morning a lady behind me warmly said "hello" to me and I thanked her for speaking to me. I know she didn't think twice about what I said, but I specifically said, "thank you for speaking to me." She was very kind, but I've never seen her again.
Anon #1 again. Sorry to be a blog hog, but I did want to add one other thought. Perhaps in business when we meet together in the boardroom situation we are trying to brainstorm and develop understanding, bounce ideas off of each other and collectively compare our individual view of the elephant (whatever that elephant might be at the time). In church there is that great fear of transparency. The gossip mills seem to work overtime, so often we are afraid to reveal our own personal struggles and heartaches. "Maybe if you knew who I really am inside, you wouldn't....." How do we get past that and deeply value the courage it takes to be transparent? How do we begin to bear one another's burdens without it reducing our own personal worth and value? How can I open up and share with you my soul and know it will be treated like a gift and not the latest tidbit on the rumor mill?
Anonymous #1, cool, thanks for writing back and giving some great insight. That is what I am hoping for. I hate to keep asking questions but I have another one. As you read this blog and the post that several make on here, do you feel that there is a sense of community developing? I know that in cyperspace a "community" is a little different. I also understand that I and most others see this differently, as we know ( very well) most of those writing. Curious as to someone else what they feel or sense.
You know I have to agree with you that I too struggle with our church culture in general. It is very odd. Comfort Zone is what it seems to be about and few (myself included) work out of that. How many feel "odd" on Sunday if you sit somewhere else or different people sit around you? Wow! That is odd. I laugh at how different the singing sounds.
Thanks for the feedback and insight. Please keep posting, sharing and worshiping with us. I am going to put this on my prayer list too!
RR
Here’s what I think and see. I think the Mitchell Church of Christ is at a very interesting point in its history. I feel like there is a battle going on in the heavenly realms over the MCOC. I can’t explain it without giving out details that would be inappropriate to share, so I’ll just leave it as I said it. I sense that we are on the verge of being different, and I think it is going to be good. We are certainly moving past casual fellowship in several circles. We are getting to a new level of understanding and desire, which sometimes leads to conflict and discussion with considerable dissent, which is not bad! At the same time, however, it is place where Satan loves to dwell and do his work. I think we successfully dealing with him so far, but it is something we must constantly do.
I think Satan is really attacking us right now because we are moving toward forming a deeper level of Christian community, which is a huge threat to him. I see things happening in my classes, for example, that I have never seen before. People are opening up and sharing real portions of their lives, often with tears and a great deal of vulnerability. On Sunday, for example, our morning class was talking about Proverbs 20:1. The discussion that followed was pointed, powerful, and frank. There were tears in several eyes. Then Sunday evening we had some very beautiful “openness” as we talked about “affairs.” I guess I am saying that we are starting to open up with each other. Plus there are several who are getting with accountability partners working on holiness, trying to overcome addictions, etc. I know I am having several very open, real dialogues with people about things that normally are not discussed. It is risky to be sure, but it is a move toward the community that God wants us to have, I believe.
We are moving toward a true small group ministry where we hope we will really get to know each other and move past talking about the weather. SO I say to everyone who feels on the outside: hang in there! We really do love you, and I think a lot of people care. Sure, some don’t, but that’s true everywhere. Let’s all leave our comfort zones and cliques and start talking to each other.
Oh, on a weather note: It’s the first full day of Spring!
Dallas Willard in the Divine Conspiracy writes about the end of the Sermon on the Mount. It’s worth reading.
Plainly in the eyes of Jesus there is no good reason for not doing what he said to do, for he only tells us to do what is best. In one situation he asks his students, “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46). Just try picturing yourself standing before him and explaining why you did not do what he said was best. Now it may by that there are cases in which this would be appropriate. And certainly we can count on his understanding. But it will not do as a general posture in a life of confidence in him. He has made a way for us into easy and happy obedience—really, into personal fulfillment. And that way is apprenticeship to him. It is Christian “discipleship.” His gospel is a gospel for life and Christian discipleship.
In other words, his basic message, “Rethink your life in the light of the fact that the kingdom of heaven is now open to all” (Matt. 4:17), presents the resources needed to live human life as we all automatically sense it should be and naturally leads one to become his student, or apprentice in kingdom living.
Therefore the practice of routine obedience from the heart is the final topic of his Discourse of the Hill. No doubt he understood ahead of time that every imaginable way would be tried to avoid simply doing the things he said and knew to be best, and now we see from history and all around us that it has been so.
So, in his conclusion to the Discourse in Matt. 7:13-27, he gives us four pictorial contrasts to help us not miss the path into the community of prayerful love, where what the law and prophets really said is fulfilled because people actually treat others the way they would like to be treated (7:12).
You enter this kingdom community, he first points out, by a narrow gate. That is, there is a correct way to enter, and not just any approach—the “wide way that leads to disaster”—will succeed (vv. 13-14).
And then he warns against those who would mislead us, those who look good, but inwardly—where we now know the real action lies—are governed merely by their own desires. Outwardly they look like sheep, but inwardly they are only thinking about eating sheep, that is, using us for their purposes (vs. 15). These are the ones Jesus’ other little brother, Jude, described as “caring for themselves....following after their own desires, speaking arrogantly and flattering people to gain advantage” (Jude 12-16).
There are so many things going on in my head right now, but I am going to try and keep it quick and simple. I understand how anonymous feels. When Mike was a youth minister, I was very INVOLVED with the church yet still felt very distant. Some of these feelings were brought on by myself..but others were truly because of clicks and people's comfort zone. I don't have the answer as to how to fix it but I feel that this church is truly seeking the Lord's guidance and the true sense of his community. I do feel that we need to get to know people which is hard to do in a 10 minute span here and there. I can tell you something that a small group of us did that I think did wonders with our relationships (I hope they don't mind me sharing). Each week all of the families cook for each other. So if Monday is your day to cook, you cook for your family and then for the other 3 families and then you deliver, yes I said get up and deliver it to the other families. The rest of the week, the other families deliver to you....so basically you cook one day a week. At the end of the month, we meet and eat together and schedule our meals for the next month. I can't tell you how many times this little ministry has been a BIG blessing in my life. My point is, we know what is going on in each other's life because somedays little ones are sick and we can't get out to delivery so another woman will step in and take over. Sometimes, we are going to Louisville with our husband so we will be back late, dr. appointments, disappointments, mommy blues, etc. What this provides is conversation about each other's life rather than the weather. We hold each other accoutable, we encourage one another, we appreciate each other. So I don't know if this helps anyone, but I think you find people you have stuff in common with (babies & toddlers) is all we had in common and we got together outside the church walls and provided each other a helpful hand.
Guys, I've been thinking about this for a while, and I don't want to step on anybody's toes, discount anybody's feelings, or anything like that, but I think we're in real danger of losing our focus. Our first and primary job, as a congregation, is to worship and glorify God. Fellowship, friendship and mutual support are wonderful, and I believe a sense of community is a tremendous blessing. But, it cannot be our primary focus. Anytime a church's main priority becomes its own survival, that's a problem. The leadership of this church does a very good job trying to create opportunities for fellowship, but it cannot create friendship. And, I don't think that should be our focus.
Donna
I am intrigued by the “living” Word of God, i.e. the Scriptures. The more I delve into communal, collaborative work, the more I am convinced that the Word is very alive and is to be contextualized for our particular time and setting. We talked about this some last week also. Here is a quote from The Four Voices of Preaching, page 130. Reid, the author, is talking about the importance of “dialoguing with the text” rather dissecting it. I’ll meet you at the end with a few comments.
Dialogic interpretation of a text would begin by affirming the necessity of considering the way in which a text has been interpretively and theologically received by a variety of communities across the centuries. This means that dialogic exegetes choose to attend interpretations that the original author(s) could not have anticipated, after-the-fact meanings that are amplified, and innovative readings that emerge out of expectations of interpretive communities. For example, New Testament readings of Old Testament texts represent clear instances in the trajectory of this practice as they take up the interpretation of previous sacred texts as a tradition of meaning relevant for their own living community. This approach suggests that there is an irreducible plurivocity possible in interpreting biblical texts rather than accepting a single, standard univocal effort to get at authorial intention. The latter... cuts the text off from its ties to a living community such that “the text gets reduced to a cadaver handed over for an autopsy.”
I think this gets at why community is crucial. To answer Donna, I don’t think we have lost the right focus at all. I think we have found it. This is not an effort to survive but to thrive! [Like the rhyme?] If it’s all about worship, then why not just stay at home on Sunday and read your Bible and have communion? If worship is about living the other 23 hours of the week (Romans 12:1ff), then I need to be surrounded by a community who is in an open dialogue with the text, constantly asking, “how does this story inform ours?” I need others to help me see this, and I need the same folks to keep me on track, to encourage, to exhort, maybe even rebuke from time to time. These things cannot happen outside of true community.
We do not ignore a historical critical approach to Scripture, but we don’t stop there. We move the living word into our lives, allowing the Spirit to shape us using his favorite tool, the Scriptures.
Those Scriptures emphasize over and over again community. To me not having people connected is sad. I know it is very complex, and like it takes two to tango, it takes effort and movement on the part of two people (or group and person) to form community. As a leader of the church, I want to make sure that I/we are doing all we can to reach out. We are making good progress, and I am at peace. But I also feel a sense of conviction to do more and better, and we will.
I really, really appreciate our Anon bloggers this week. I don’t sense any whining; just an effort to share thoughts that will help hopefully. Thanks.
I love what Joni and others are doing. I think it reflects, in some ways, what was going on in the book of Acts. People were involved in each other’s lives. They ate together and worshiped together.
What else can we do to make thing better?
Now, lest Lester, Mr. Meat and Potatoes (Is that supposed to have an “E”? Where is Dan Quayle when you need him?), be upset that we are off subject. I think fruit bearing takes place and is discerned, you guessed it, in community. Here is but one example, as Paul writes the Philippians (1:9-11):
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.
Now, how cool is that? Paul gets knowledge, depth of insight, and discernment all hooked together. Is he talking about the study of Scripture, which would have had to been in community, since they didn’t have pew Bibles to take home? The result: FRUIT of righteousness–holiness that comes from Christ and that bring glory to the Father.
I have a question or two about the Starving Jesus book and approach. What about it is “in your face” and so convicting? I am curious. I read a little of the website, which is really hard to do with dial-up. I have not read enough to know what they are after, however. I know their picture scares me a little... ha ha ha. Seeking insight and understanding...
In my class this evening, which was really good by the way, we discussed the possible identities of the false teachers that Jesus warns against. In the early church there seems to be two major extremes which were presented by false teachers: legalism and antinomianism. Paul seems to address both in the letter to the Galatians. Legalism, of course, seeks to relate to God on the basis of law or rule keeping. Antinomianism, which literally means “against law,” was just the opposite. People were free to the point that behavior did not matter.
I THINK I see the same temptation for us today. It is tempting to relate to God on the basis of my works (legalism). I think most of us have rejected that. The threat I see today, and this is what I was touching on last Sunday, is a relaxed attitude about all things. An appeal to freedom is sometimes made to justify less than holy behavior. Biblical freedom never means freedom to do as you please. Galatians 5 (vs 13,14) seems to indicate that “freedom in Christ” means that we are free to love one another, not to do what we want:
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Freedom in Christ is restricted by our relationship to one another in community. Read Romans 14 and part of 15. Also check out 1 Corinthians 8-10.
We must avoid the extremes on each side, antinomianism and legalism. What is the answer? The answer is Jesus. He enfleshes Scripture, the Law and Prophets; the Word become flesh. He lives out the Scripture and shows us the way to walk the narrow road. He relies upon, and is led by, the Spirit of God (see Luke’s gospel for this emphasis). We receive the same Spirit which should lead us to have loving relationships and passion for holiness. All that seems fruitful to me. What do you think?
Allen:
Hmm, I will try to answer your question about the book. Michelle and Jean jump in too. First, the book is not written by an author. In other words it is written by someone just like us. Second, it is not touchy feely. In other words he had no intention of you feeling good about yourself after you read it. I really think his intention was after you finished reading it to look at yourself in the mirror and say " I am a slacker and I need to get my butt in gear for God!" The author puts in writing things that several us feel or have felt but would never dream of putting in writing. He is critical of the "mega churches" and the churches that make you "feel good" ( he's ok, she's ok, everybody is ok) There are some stories about people in there that took some incredible leaps of faith. For example the "horn guy". the author himself walked away from a 6 figure job with not enough money in the bank to pay the next mortgage because he felt God calling. The author is a cross between John the Baptist, Paul and Peter. (Think about that one for a while)
Jean, Michelle; does that cover it?
His message is that the church of today needs to take the message to those that need it not sit in our pews and fancy churches and wait for them to come to us. Get out there and do something for God and look for his guidance.
RR
Sorry, another question.
So how is this message different than what you perceive the message of MCOC to be?
Seeking understanding...
Allen very interesting question.
First, I think the message is different from the typical or "old school" CoC because the author clearly feels that we are to minister, witness, testify and sacrifice for thost that are lost and this means stepping out from those that are like us or stepping out of the places and crowds we normally deal with. How is it different than the message of MCoC? Maybe the message is not as different as the method.
Honestly, I think a large percentage of our family would find parts of the book offensive and the presentation so, however, at the same time, they would most likely agree with the message. Does that make sense?
I am not sure how to say this or get my point across but there is a difference between someone telling you about the will of God and that God will take care of you if you develop the closeness and "Chirstlike" relationship with him, than hearing it from someone who has taken some huge risks because they totally believed it. Although you can believe and follow, reality sets in more with hardcore examples. With out telling you the whole book, here are just few examples; the example I said earlier about the author and what he did, he has did this more than once, the "horn guy" did something similiar and moved his family across country because of God's calling, the recount of the 40 day fast, the struggles, the hunger, the awakening. Powerful stuff.
Is this book for everyone? No way.
But it touched me and challenged me and I believe it has done the same for Michelle.
Does any of that answer your question?
RR
How is this message diffferent from the MCoC message...
I'll answer indirectly. I can think of at least 3 significant times since Monday where I haven't done something that Jesus would have done. 3 times when I could have been light in darkness but truly chose not to do so because of fear or laziness.
(I'm getting ready to make some assumptions and generalities here, so get ready...)
If I told most people about the 3 opportunities I missed, they would say, "well, at least you are aware of the opportunities you missed..." or "God will see that his purposes are accomplished in spite of your failings." The reason I think that most people would say those things is b/c that's what I would say to someone. But the authors of this book would say, "Then go now, find those people," "Why are you still thinking about this when you could be doing?" or "Faith without works is dead."
I'm not sure I'm describing this well. I am not sure that all of us are suited to exactly the lifestyle thaat the authors have embraced...but I think we have a long way to go before we err on the side of too much action, not enough thought.
I am only on chapter 3 in the book, so Ryan has a much better grasp on its message than I. It's not the sort of book that can be read quickly. Sorry if my thoughts aren't clear.
Kinda, maybe.
I am NOT taking this personally, but I use me for an example. If I understand them, through you, I am not very effective because I have not taken any huge risks for God, right? And our church is not very effective because none of us have done these things, right? Our church would be considered a typical ineffective church; I am guessing. I am reading this a lot in the Emergent literature. I am trying to figure it out.
But what about character, integrity, faithfulness, etc.? I find the seven letters to the churches in Asia Minor to be instructive (Rev. 1-3).
I have a lot of respect for folks who simply, faithfully walk the narrow road and have all their lives. [People like your parents, Ryan; people like mine.] Did they uproot their families and go somewhere and do something dramatic? No, but they loved their family, provided for them, and taught them how to love God and neighbor. Exciting stuff? Nope. Faithful and God-honoring? I would say Yes. These are the folks who give generously so that we can reach out to those who are really different, to the youth, to people who live in different places. Who would condemn them? Why would we offend them?
I am really convicted that we are not doing enough, and I am presently working with others to do more. We have hundreds of people visiting our food pantry, and I think we would say that they are “really different” than most of our members. I am ready, along with others, to begin sharing the true Bread of Life with them.
I just wonder about all this stuff a lot.
Allen I think you are right and so is Michelle. You used my parents as an example and that falls directly with this book. My dad for example when on several mission trips. Absoluetely no way in the world we as a family could afford that. Not even close! However, my dad felt God called him to do that and he stepped out and made the commitment. To my knowledge I never missed a meal and my parents never missed a payment on anything. Now compare that to me now. I make alone 4 times what my dad was making at that time. I can afford to do that. Have I? Heck no!! I dream about it and I say "some day" but I haven't. The author is saying the church today has gotten lazy. It is not the dramatic part that really has the impace maybe as much as the fact that they did something!
Are we doing enough? No
You made a comment that really struck me at the message of the book. Not an exact quote from you, but you said "we are serving so many families that COME to our food pantry..." Notice you said that COME TO OUR. Sure we have take the step to get the food and items, but we set there in our nice little comfortable church building and hang out a shingle saying "FOOD PANTYR OPEN TODAY" and wait for them to come in! Why not take it to them? I bet you know exactly where someone who could use a bag of groceries, a smile, a warm "hello" lives right now don't you? Don't we all. Why not load the van up with stuff and drive through Mitchell and walk up, knock on the door, say God loves you and so do I, here, take this food as a token of my love and suppor for you and here is my card if you need anything else! ? Why do we think they have to come to us for help? Did Jesus go into a town and sit down and say Ok, the needy need to come to me? NO!! How many of us are willing to stand outside the Hideaway or other such establishment and witness to those who come out or offer to drive home the impaired driver. Wouldn't Jesus have done that?
Sorry to get on my soap box.
RR
Michelle, I think I have tried to live the way you describe, and it leads to incredible stress and guilt. I still battle it, and I battle it hard. The “what if-could have-should have” path is not one of joy, at least not for me. I as strive to constantly allow the Spirit of God to form/transform me, I am trying to relax more, trust God more, and quit worrying about some of these things.
In our Sunday morning class, a few months ago now, as we studied David and Solomon, someone (Duane) pointed out how God accomplished his will in spite of David and Solomon’s sin. The point is that God is in control and will accomplish his will through us, with us, and in spite of us. I found that to be a very helpful thought. It made me relax a little. Do I still wonderful what would happen if I made a few more calls, did a few more things, etc.? Yes, but I just have to let it go and trust God.
Am I proposing that we do nothing? You know me better than that (ha ha). I am constantly frustrated that things, simple things, aren’t done. Trying to let that go, too. We are getting ready to announce some new opportunities to serve. I wonder how they will be received? I am hopeful, actually, that many will work. Also, there are many, many things done in secret (Matt.6 style) that we don’t know about. God knows.
Is Micah 6:7,8 helpful?
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.
I love ALL of you, and I love the fact that we can have these conversations. I think God really is trying to form us into to his people, and there may be pruning in that process (See John 15). I am also sure that Satan is really ticked off right now, so watch out!
OK, when do we go?
Actually this was/is the plan, specifically. More than a year ago we had a plan to go visit the folks that came to us. We planned to take a bag of groceries and sit with them, trying to discern their needs further, including spiritually. We had to delay the ministry for a little while due to some pretty good reasons, but we are ready to start that soon.
Stay tuned.
Of course everyone is free to go do this anytime with anyone in any way. So go! I think we have been saying this for years. At least that's what I thought I was saying.
OK, here's the deal. I will probably be away from this site for 24+ hours. My inactivity is not indicative of my interest level. I will be back tomorrow (maybe sooner but I doubt it). Keep it going, and keep it respectful of all. God is watching, you know! Ha ha
Howdy,
Just read the exchange surrounding Starving Jesus, and thought I should say something since my name was mentioned. I have not actually read the book. (Waiting for Michelle to finish.) I pointed out the website when we were learning about fasting because I knew that this book had inspired my friend to embark on a 40-day fast from food. I thought it could offer some insight into the how & why of fasting.
Having discussed this with my friend who fasted and read their website and talked to Michelle about what she is thinking as she reads, this is what I am sensing the message to be...
None of us can deny that our attitudes, prejudices, stereotypes, traditions, and--let's admit it--typically comfy lifestyles have at one time or another stopped us from doing the bidding of our Father. I don't think this realization and the reaction to it should cause guilt or stress but should, instead, cause us to change the way we think about different encounters and situations that we face. I don't see this to be a generational thing or a "style of serving" thing; we just need to be open and responsive to the urging of the Spirit. Often, that means doing things we would not have planned for our day, our family, our lives. Allen, I don't think we need to quantify or qualify our reaction to the Spirit's leading...but, I believe that packing up and heading to another hemisphere with a new bride to preach the Gospel may be the kind of "unconventional" thing the book is exemplifying. Honestly, knowing the mission of the writers, the style of writing, & those they are primarily talking to, I think this movement is the kind of kick in the "tush" that their target audience needs. Like Michelle and Ryan said, it's not necessarily a recommended read for everyone, but, perhaps, the Truth of it's message will prick the hearts of a few who need to hear it. I, for one, am dying to read it.
Beautifully stated Jean!!!
Very well said.
Allen, by the way, I will be away from this site the next two weeks!!!!
RR
Hey, I found a computer I can get on. How 'bout that? I hope they don't miss it. Just kidding.
I've been thinking about this conversation all afternoon, which is a conversation about what we should do with our lives, right?
I thought about some of the older gentlemen who bag 1000s of bags of corn each year down at Bryantsville. They gather and work slowly and methodically with a great deal of respect for each other and the task at hand. It's too slow for me, but I think it is awesome that these guys are doing something to feed hungry people.
Henri Nouwen changed my life with these words: My whole life I have been complaining that my work was constantly interrupted, until I discovered the interruptions were my work.
Here's how that works FOR ME:
It's great to dream, and WE are enjoying the fruit of past dreams: food pantry, FLC, youth program, style of worship...; all of these are here because some of us dared to dream. Please continue to dream; I know I am. But while dreaming we must not neglect the work right in front of us. The boring. The mundane. The Matthew-25-Judgment-Scene work: food, drink, clothes, visits, care, compassion toward marginalized folks. Nothing fancy really; just the work of/for Christ.
I've done a few things exciting in my day. I started a church among Laotion refugees, traveling into the worst ghettoes of Nashville, went to New York City and made visits in Harlem to set up Bible studies, went to Scotland and knocked on doors for a couple of weeks, went to Tasmania for a couple of years, did short term mission work in Papua New Guinea, planted a new church in Auckland, New Zealand. To borrow Paul's expression, I am out of mind to talk like this. All fo these things were good, fun, and pretty "out there" for a hick from Southern Indiana. But I THINK I am doing my best and most important work right now, although I do have some questions about my effectiveness. POINT? Ministry, in my mind, is not the flashy and fun and cool, though it can be all that. True ministry, at the end of the day, is real life stuff: giving someone a bath, getting groceries, bagging corn, visiting people, ultimately showing and sharing Jesus.
I hope I am not done with the fun and the cool, but in the meantime I have some pretty ordinary work to do that has eternal value.
And one last thing! Thanks Ryan for rubbing it in that you are going away for Spring Break.
Amen, Brother...er, Uncle...in-law...Allen!!
Perhaps our dreaming needs to be more like "day dreaming". Our hearts longing for Heaven's perfect plans while our hands work until those dreams come true.
BTW, where in the world are you and whose computer did you steal?
Where have I been? Well, I was on a magical mystical tour, a brief foray into mysticism and the monastic life. Well kinda, anyway.
Hey, I know all you will be excited about this! I had a Pileated Woodpecker make multiple visits to one of my bird feeders that is right outside my home office window. It was an awesome. I wanted to talk to him but he seemed a little shy.
How ‘bout I end my week of blogging (unless there is more to respond to tomorrow) with this prayer from Thomas Merton?
The Road Ahead
My Lord God
I have no idea where I am going.
I do not see the road ahead of me.
I cannot know for certain where it will end.
Nor do I really know myself,
and the fact that I think I am following your will
does not mean that I am actually doing so.
But I believe that the desire to please you
does in fact please you.
And I hope that I have that desire
in all that I am doing.
I hope that I will never do anything
apart from that desire.
And I know that if I do this,
you will lead me by the right road,
though I may know nothing about it.
Therefore I will trust you always,
though I may seem to be lost
and in the shadow of death.
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