Here is one of the more disturbing passages (Matthew 5:31,32) in the Sermon on the Mount:
"It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."
What do think about this?
Tell us about your experience with divorce (anonymity is fine, maybe preferable?).
How would you describe divorce?
If your parents divorced, how did that affect you as a child (and beyond, if that applies)?
Should divorce people be treated differently in church community? Are they?
What do you want to say?
What questions do you want to ask?
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This is Thanksgiving week, so please continue to share thoughts and stories about gratitude. Do you have a "most memorable" Thanksgiving?
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Last week I read Henri Nouwen's little book, "The Return of the Prodigal Son." It is a nice, neat read. Nouwen tells about his life-changing encounter with Rembrandt's painting with the same title. He tells a lot about the painting and makes application to his life and beyond. Just for fun this week I am reading "A Travel Guide to Heaven" by Anthony DeStefano. What are you reading and why?
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What else is on your mind?
About Me
- Allen
- Mitchell, Indiana, United States
- I love my family, and I enjoy what I do. I am in my 18th year with the Mitchell Church of Christ. I am an endurance athlete. The parallels between endurance athletics and ministry are remarkable. They are mutually beneficial.
The Holy Trinity
My favorite Icon (see link below for more information)
38 comments:
While to many (most?) this time of year is the best, let us remember that to others (even some at MCOC) this is a black time of year filled with loneliness and unhappiness. How can we help uplift them?
What is Church of Christs stand on divorce? And do they take into account the 'unfaithfulness" issue Jesus brings up? Or are all divorced and remarried people treated in the same respect?
Annette
Maybe I should make myself more clear. I remember when we needed new elders and decons it was said no divorced men would be accepted.
I am thinking of the lives of King David and Paul here.
Annette
And what about the forgiveness factor in adultery?
Annette
Annette; this is a topic that I have spritually grown in an understanding and have changed my on personal thoughts concerning it. I did not grow up in the Church of Christ; I grew up in the Church of God. Their beliefs concerning divorce is what I would say is somewhat more forgiving. They do not have elders or decons; but a church board which they will allow divorced individuals be on. In fact at one time the church I grew up in had a pastor that had been divorced. Now the reason for the divorce was not over adultry it was over she did not want to be a pastors wife and left. I understand your question about the unyeilding forgiveness of God. This is an aspect that I have always strugeled with myself. From my personal experiance and belief I feel divorce should only happen due to adultry and be reconized by the church in this case. Yet what do we do in the cases of spousal abuse; or child abuse? These are areas that I myself am not sure of. I have first hand seen the affects of a divorce due to adultry in my wife's family and have seen not only how it affects the two parties involved but the extended family. Hope this helps you some maybe to not feel alone in your questions. Robin
As an adult looking back at my parents lives, I often think that my siblings and I's lives would have been more peacefull if my parents had divorced. They fought constantly, and still do really, and every fight ended with "well why dont we just get a divorce." They never did, and I'm thankful that my parents are at times able to make it work. But i still resent my mom for always threatning a divorce and i resent my dad for always involving us kids in the fights.
This is a completely off track thought, but does anyone else find it distracting that the same familis arive late every sunday? They all seem to arrive 10-15 minutes late and its always distracting. Is there something we can do as a congregation to encourage everyone to be on time?
I understand the distraction of people showing up late; but I think we are getting very picking if we are letting this bother us to the point of wanting the church to do something. It seems to me that we should be just glad that they are coming; would we rather them just not show up if they are going to arrive after 1030?
This is going to be an interesting week; that's good.
Since the Churches of Christ have no headquarters or other governing body, there is no "official" position on divorce (or any other matter). Today there are many different views about how to handle divorce and divorced people in the various Churches of Christ. [Here I am referring to churches that basically believe and teach the same things, those who trace themselves back to Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell. We are a part of the Restoration Movement.]
Our congregation has taken an inclusive position toward the divorced. We factor in heavily grace, mercy, and forgiveness. We have divorced people doing a lot of important things in our congregation. Having said that, we still hold to a conservation view about elders and deacons, i.e., that they should not be divorced. Why? Because of what Paul says in 1 Timothy 3, specifically the phrase, the husband of but one wife. He says the same thing in Titus. This is very difficult issue for me, but my main concern is faithfulness to God.
We have many divorced people in our church family, and I do not view them as second class citizens or members. In fact I don't even view them as divorced people. At the end of the day we are all flawed people. I may not be divorced but I certainly have a lot of other areas of my life where I failed to live up to God's ideal.
I appreciate the personal comments about how divorce has affected you. Diane, I think you are the first person I have heard say that they were glad that her parents divorced. I understand what you are saying however, and it is reflected in the other comment. It is so sad for parents to subject their children to the stress and tension of open argument. It is so damaging. Fight in private.
Home, as much as possible, needs to be a place of peace and harmony for everyone, especially the children. They need a safe, secure place.
Re: "off track."
If I had a magic wand, I would wave it and everyone would be on time at all times! I would love for all Bible class teachers to be in their rooms 15 minutes before classes start to welcome students, etc. (actually working on that one) and for all worshippers to be present 15 minutes before time to greet one another and then be ready to be in their seats at 10:29. Wouldn't all that be great?
Yes, but it is probably not going to happen. People are all wired differently. I have spent too much of my life frustrated by/about such things. I once asked a spiritual guide how to handle the frustration of other people's "irresponsibility" (my word). He said, "Are you expecting to be better than Jesus?" I said, "What?" He said, "Just look at Jesus and all the things the disciples did (or didn't do) that was different from what he was wanting. Even though he could have been frustrated and beyond, he continued to love them and work with them."
The point: we just deal with the messiness of human frailty and fault. We all have flaws. I suggest you just sit up toward the front, and then you won't see the latecomers. I, too, am glad they are there.
Allen; good words about tardyness. I to for years was the person that on time for me meant to be someplace no less than 10 min. before you were told to. Once I was married I learned first hand about people being wired differently. I love Jill a great deal but if you tell her to be someplace at 10am; then 10am it is not a minute sooner. The first few years of our marriage it drove me nuts. Now that you mention it think about when Christ feed the multitude; you know that had to be time consuming and if Christ was worried about time; he would have been pacing back and forth thinking hurry up and pass the food out and hurry up to eat because I have a lot to get said today and you people are keeping me from getting it done. Robin
Thanks Robin. I really want to meet you sometime. I was just throwing that out there. I don't really have a view where thats concerned but I did wonder, so I figured others wondered too.
No one plans on getting divorced when they get married. Life happens. How we deal with it is what matters and I know I sure could have handled things better in my own life.
I love sitting in front. I don't notice people coming in late. I love front and center otherwise the distractions would drive me crazy and I would have un- christian thoughts. Try it, there are many open seats, but please just don't take mine.
Annette
First of all let me say that I loved my mom and dad and I treasure the good memories that they gave me and respected their work ethic and their determination to make it in this world without much help. They were kids from the depression era and grew up in a very different time. The thing that I do resent in our upbringing, was the fact that my dad was in his younger years, verbally, mentally and physically abusive to our mother and watching the abuse has had a profound effect on each of their seven children. We lived in fear of him coming home and not having everything just the way he wanted it. I chose to work outside and stay outside alot of the time to avoid the profanity, the verbal abuse to our mom and the fear of retribution for not doing something the way I was supposed to do it. She was actually beaten up for taking us to church by a neighbor lady. We came home to a locked door and the argument and abuse followed. Mother would talk about leaving when he wasn't there but she never did and stuck it out because she had no choice and I think she really loved him. He did change in later years but not in time for those of us who suffered through it. I know there are no scriptures that tell us we can divorce for abuse but I can tell you I would live alone for the rest of my life if abuse were a part of the partnership. The scars it leaves on children are for life. I do think that because the church offered the 'fresh air' I needed that my faith grew from that need to find a better way of life and I did learn what to look for in personalities to avoid the choices that were made by my mother who married very young. Something good comes from everything bad that happens to us if we look for the blessing. I am so thankful for a good husband and family. Maybe to prevent a bad choice everyone should have pre-marital counseling to be really sure of the decision because it does affect us the rest of our lives. God has given us an ideal to live up to and He does want us to forgive and work out our differences and divorce to the absolutely last choice. But, we do not live in an ideal world and I would be the last to condem anyone who had to make that choice. I barely notice anyone coming in late. I am just so glad to see those little families coming in any time to sit and worship. We are early birds but we are all different and I remember well the effort it took to get us all out the door. God bless them for coming. Sherron
Can you consider someone who spends more time at work than at home an adulterer (i'm not sure that's a word). Its not like the person is having an afair with a other person but rather with their work...
What is everyone oppion on that?
I forgot, earlier, to address the very first post comment to the original post. How do we help those in need, especially the ones we know? And the ones who come to our food pantry? I think one of the most important things is to treat them as you do other people who are like you; show respect, recognizing them as fellow image-bearers of God. I read a book a few years ago, and something in that book came to my mind this morning. I pulled the book off the shelf and turned right to it; that’s how deep an impression in made on me. This quote is from Christine Pohl’s, Making Room - Recovering Hospitality as a Christian Tradition (Eerdmans, 1999), p. 62.
Because the practice of hospitality is so significant in establishing and reinforcing social relationships and moral bonds, we notice its more subversive character only when socially undervalued people are welcomed. In contrast to a more tame hospitality that welcomes persons already well situated in a community, hospitality that welcomes “the least” and recognizes their equal value can be an act of resistance and defiance, a challenge to the values and expectations of the larger community. People view hospitality as quaint and tame partly because they do not understand the power of recognition. When a person who is not valued by society is received by a socially respected person or group as a human being with dignity and worth, small transformations occur. The person’s self-assessment, so often tied to societal assessment, is enhanced. Because such actions are countercultural, they are a witness to the larger community, which is then challenged to reassess its standards and methods of valuing. Many persons who are not valued by the larger community are essentially invisible to it. When people are socially invisible, their needs and concerns are not acknowledged and no one even notices the injustices they suffer. Hospitality can begin a journey toward visibility and respect.
Wow! So that’s what we can do, all of us. It’s not easy, but it is the will of God. I am convinced of that with all my heart.
I'm not sure I would call the workaholic an adulterer, but something unhealthy is likely going on, unless a person's job is that demanding. In that case maybe a new job is needed? I think a good, honest, healthy discussion about goals and priorities would be appropriate.
Sherron's story makes me sad. I wonder how typical it was/is? I think it is remarkable how well Sherron has "turned out," after growing up in such an environment. I think it demonstrates the power of God to redeem, restore, and renew.
I think we should go back to the evil women. Much more interesting. By the way, why has no one commented on deer season? Tis the season folks, let's put priorities in order. tw
Three guys come up to Albert Einstein looking for work. Einstein says to the first guy, who's clean-cut and dressed in suit and tie, "What's your IQ?"
The man answers, "170."
"Wow," Einstein replies. "You're a genius. I've been working on this theory of relativity; maybe you can give me a hand."
The second guy steps up; he's your regular Joe, presentable but nothing special. "So what's your IQ, my good man?" Einstein says.
"One-thirty," he answers.
"You're no genius," Einstein says, "but maybe you're smart enough to help with some minor mathematical equations. I can put you to work in the lab."
The third guy approaches, unshaven, his shirttail hanging out. Einstein looks him up and down. "So what's your IQ?" he asks.
"Eighty," says the man. Einstein thinks a minute, squints, fingers the cleft in his chin. "Get your deer yet?" he asks.
Here is a famous quote:
"Women are evil and wicked; deer are good (to eat)." -Tee Dub
Sorry, it's the best I can do right now.
There were people around me as I was growing up who had a great influence. One was a very humble Christian neighbor who was a wonderful example. My grandmother lived just up the road from us (my Dad's mother) and she taught us all so much and was also a person who influenced all of us in a positive way. Mother sang hymns all the time around the house. She loved to sing. God puts special people in this world to be lights and I had so many to look up to. Daddy in his later years gave Brent and Jason many happy memories of a then very docile grandfather who was humbled by heart disease and by events in his life. His life ended as a bus driver for the Shakamak School System and He became a servant to others in the end and was a leader in the community. Many children who rode on his bus came to the funeral. He owned and ran his own business in Jasonville for 20 years with only an eighth grade education. We knew he loved us but he had difficulties expressing that love. I will say that he never allowed the four letter 'F' word by anyone in our presence and he did protect us from those who would harm us. I think he just did the best he could and what he knew was abuse himself as he grew up. The frustrations of raising a large family and putting food on the table took it's toll on him but he wouldn't trade any of us for any treasure on this earth. Our mother was baptized in later years and served the Lord in many ways. She loved her children beyond comprehension and sacrificed greatly to raise us. She grew up as a daughter of a devoted Christian Salvation Army mother who played music on street corners with the band in Linton, IN. I have seen God's leading throughout my life and most of my family are Christians now and some are being prayed for alot. God puts opportunities in front of us in whatever state we find ourselves to love and serve others. I am most blessed and I praise God every day for what He has given me. I love you all very much. Have a wonderful day. Sherron
Very touching Sherron. My parents never hugged us or told us they loved us until they were older and getting sick. I must admit it still feels strange, but I go with the flow. That is one of the main reasons I told my kids I loved them, because it was never said to me growing up. Better late than never.
Annette
I haven't posted on here for a long time, but this is one that I figured would draw a lot of attention. My personal opinion about Divorce, I'm not sure yet. Don't know if I'll ever be sure. The only sure thing I know is I never want to go through it. I've seen too many friends and relatives go through it and it's never easy on anyone involved (kids, family, friends, etc..). The court systems today don't care about reconciliation, it is more concerned with pushing things through, ending things quickly. I don't think there's enough emphasis on reconciliation. People seem to be to willing to give up on relationships anymore (I still believe that no one should live in an adulterous or abusive relationship.). I bet if you could go through and read about some of the reasons why people have gotten divorced, you would probably laugh. The old Hollywood stand-by of "irreconcilable differences" is used way too often. That's why we need to educate our kids about the meaning of FOREVER. They don't get it most of the time. That's why you see 18 year olds getting tattoos (I'm not slamming tattoos, I have one too, I was 30 years old when I got it :] ).
I do believe that if we plan to reach out into the places that Jesus would, we are going to have to trust in his grace in certain situations. I can't believe that he support a second divorce for the sake of legalism. The second one may be a more Christ driven bond and affect more others in a positive mannner than the first one ever would be. I think that the churches that continue to base their faith on legalism will eventually fade, especially in today's society. I don't believe that we should contradict the scriptures, but we have to look at them with a loving, Christ-like spirit instead of a judgemental, Pharisee style legalism.
Just my $.02.
Brent
Brent; I enjoyed reading your posting and you actually said what I wanted to say in my earlier posting but much better. I have to admit for some reason this blog has been hard for me to wrap my arms around unlike last weeks. One of my favorite employees pasted away this Monday; they did not show up for work on Monday which was unlike them. This person had worked for me off and on for the past 5 years. I always knew at lunch I could find him sitting at his workstation eating and reading his Bible. There were many a time he was not only my employee but my Dad at work. He most likely knew me better than anyone here at the plant and he knew when, as he would put it "I needed a knot jerked in my tail" for something I did or said. I always respected him for being able to tell me what was on his mind even if it was something I might not want to hear. Again thank you to all who write on this blog. Happy Thanksgiving. Robin
I understand why the Bible says, "God hates divorce." As someone who has loved the Lord for as long as I can remember, I expected to have a wonderful Christian home. I married a man who by all evidence seemed to be committed to the Lord. After 10 years of marriage and 3 children later, he seemed so depressed. We prayed and prayed for him. The visual images are locked in my mind. The children and I would sit around the dining room table and ask God to help daddy. I even went to his parents and brothers to ask them to pray for him. Well, the world came crashing down one evening when I opened his briefcase to get some copies he was to make for me at the office and I saw a letter. At that second, I just knew. With the baby on my hip, I took the letter to the bathroom, locked the door and read it. He stood outside telling me that it wasn't what I thought. Yeah, right. The visual image of that time will never leave my mind. I see my beautiful children sitting around the table. We are in a glass ball and out of the corner of my eye I see a huge wrecking ball swinging toward us....and things will never, ever be the same. The heartache never heals. It evokes the same depth of pain as I write these words as it did when I read the letter. If anything, it hurts even more now because after 16 years it is so evident of the price that the children have had to pay.
My story belongs to so many people and sadly the church and Christians seem to have the same statistics as the world.
I cannot imagine the pain you have experienced and continue to experience. Thank you for sharing. It gives me a glimpse of how horrible adultery and then divorce is.
Adultery and divorce are not the unpardonable sins, and we will continue to embrace those who have done it/experienced it, helping them to find redemption. BUT we must embrace the Kingdom ethic that Jesus is announcing. NO MORE DIVORCE. Marriage is forever, as Brent says. We need to instill this deeply within our children and grandchildren. Lord, help us.
The other thing that cuts so deeply about adultery is the incredible betrayal. When you are a believer and you truly love the Lord and want to live for and serve Him, the betrayal by someone whom you considered, not only your life's mate, but also a partner in your journey to serve Christ is devastating. When I went through the divorce and the following vicious custody battle, I spent a huge amount of time in the Psalms. Psalms 55 was particularly poignant to me, "For it was not an enemy that reproached me: then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him; But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company." Wow, that just about sums it up.
I'm reading, Fast Food Nation, by Eric Schlosser. It's a very interesting reading providing historical background of the rise of fast food restaurants. It details the impact they have had on the cohesiveness of our culture and also the effects on management/HR development. A movie by the same name will be coming out in the states next month, I think. I previewed the movie in Italy and thought it to be a bit too much political propaganda for my taste. It's quite graphic, but does address issues that need to be resolved. It's certainly worth reading and will change the way you look at your next "Happy Meal"! After this book, I'm on my way to The Omnivore's Dilemma by Micheal Pollan.
I dunno about "Happy Meals". I've eaten dozens of those things, and they haven't improved my disposition one bit...
Donna
I expected this blog to get a lot of print and comments. Some pretty amazing insight here. Before commenting, a few thoughts in general. First, Sherron, please please write a book! Your post are so moving that you need to put these thoughts into book form so that not just those that are lucky enough to know you, can grow from them, but everyone. Donna, I knew you would post about the "Happy Meal" :)To those who have posted personal accounts of divorce, props to you! I am truly inspired for your dedication to God and your mettle to make it through this and to share. Without a doubt you have experienced great pain.
Now on to some thoughts. I laughed when Allen used the term "unpardonable sin". Honestly, not growing up in the CoC, but having friends who did, there were two things that I thought of the CoC. First, if you didn't belong,they thought you were hell bound. The second was that divorce was the "unpardonable sin". Like Brent and Robin, I am not sure I have reached a point in my life that I have formed a solid opinion. To me there seems to be so many situations that warrant a different look. Many times it is the result of one party's self desires (adultry,etc.)and I see those different than a situation where one partner leaves out of protection for themselves or others in the family (abuse, etc.) I just struggle with the thought that God really expects us to post the "scarlet letter" on those that have experienced divorce. Maybe I am wrong. It seems hard to wrap my mind around the fact that God'd direction is for us to fully accept someone such as Jeffry Dahmer into our family ( all accounts a saved member of the CoC in prinson) after the horrific acts he committed, yet to accept a member into our family with parameters because of divorce. A question I suppose I will write in my little book to ask God someday.
In our society though, divorce has become like bankruptcy, it is too easy and socially acceptable. A sad testament to our culture. Everything is to an extreme and nothing off limits, look at the average lifestyle, huge credit card debt, huge debt in general, all because we can not tell ourselves "no". The answer, I don't know, but I trust God is just and compassionate and he has it all figured out.
Happy Thanksgiving to all, and I am thankful for all that share on this blog; thankful for Sherron's great wisdom, Annette's heartfelt passion and honesty, Allen's leadership, the brutal honesty of the "boys" and all others who come here and by participating show what a true loving family of God actually is.
RR
Wonderful heartfelt comments this week! To those who have shared their stories-thank you for being open and honest about the pain you have experienced.
Like many others, Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. This year I am thankful for my family, a wonderful husband who loves the Lord and loves us, children who are healthy and good (most of the time:)), my wonderful church family, and a home to cook and share a Thanksgiving dinner in.
Kedra
Our family wishes all of you and your families a blessed Thanksgiving. Make and keep memories for yourselves on film, in writing down what happened that day and most of all, in your memories. All too soon the ones we love become memories recorded in pictures and writings we made in a former time. Treasure each day, each hour and each moment with your loved ones. May God's grace and care be with you as you travel and bring us all back safely on Sunday. Our precious new grandson, Aaron will be with us Sunday morning and we are so excited. We are blessed with two Thanksgivings this year but Sunday is our family one. We are headed to visit friends in the Chicago area and meet up with my sister, Teresa who now lives there for Thanksgiving day. Thank you for all your kind words. YOu are all precious to me. I think this is an excellent way to get to know one another's hearts and by connecting that way the bond of love is formed that we need to face our daily trials and blessings. You give me strength and your various insights are encouraging. By the way, a beautiful bird called a flicker came to the bird feeder on the porch yesterday morning. It stayed a long time and it is the first time it ever had gotten that close to the house. That was my blessing for the morning. Look for them everywhere because they are all around you. God Bless You All. Sherron
Yeah, I’ve noticed that the Happy Meal didn’t do much for Donna. JUST KIDDING!
There is another book that is similar to Fast Food Nation, I think. It is Barry Schwartz’s book, The Paradox of Choice: Why More is Less. Mike Cope on his blog provides a great review and analysis. I am thinking of adding it to my Wishlist.
I paid Kedra to compliment me.
The “Psalm 55” post is insightful. I think the reason Jesus gives the “exception clause,” found only in Matthew by the way, is because of the pain of betrayal. Trust has been broken. Trust that has been broken is very, very difficult to restore.
I have had a couple of people tell me this week that they believe they are still “living in sin” because they married for a second time. [This saddens me.] It raises the issue of whether adultery is one time sin or an ongoing sin. Is the sin the breaking of trust/covenant or is it the sexual act?
I agree with Ryan that Sherron should write a book. To add to Sherron's comment about building memories and recording them...this couldn't be more important. When my Dad died my best friend gave me a frame with the words "When someone you love becomes a memory, that memory becomes a treasure." Don't assume you will have the chance tomorrow. I thought the same thing and missed the opportunity to give my Dad one last hug and tell him I loved him. As I drove away from their house after picking up the kids I thought to myself.."I didn't hug my Dad...I will hug him tomorrow"...the next morning he was gone. Don't forget this holiday season to tell those you love how much you care about them and how thankful you are they are in your life. Happy Thanksgiving to all!!
Mel
Happy Thanksgiving everyone! What a beautiful day.
Annette
Thanks Annette! I had a nice time today, so far. I got to go on a long run early this morning with two good friends,Tony and Anthony. Ate, napped, watched football, walked around outside, not necessarily in that order. Gettin' about ready to start delving into the leftovers and watch some more football. Glad I'm not preaching about gluttony on Sunday. Well, on second thought that might be easier!
Another beautiful day. Praise God.
You may be right Allen, in fact I'm sure you are, it would be easier. But its clear some are having a very hard time dealing with this subject. So you have a hard job to do and I think you will do it very well as always.
Which brings to my mind...I hope everyone is praying for Allen. He is a great leader but he is human too and struggles just like the rest of us. I thank God for him and for the rest of our church family.
Annette
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